Reality vs Rambo!

[Wildalaska]

OK get ready to flame away...

What is it about men and guns that brings out the Rambo?
Time and time again I read about and listen to debates about how you need "snag free sights in case you have to clear a malfunction one handed", or must have a "back up" weapon, or whats the best way to carry "three" extra mags, what rounds will "punch through" car doors,, and so on ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Now I am not talking about practical training topics...rather I am talking about a mindset of aggression...the Rambo syndrome...the idea that one NEEDS to have all this training, extra mags, the hottest rounds, back up guns so you can go out and FIGHT the goblins for truth, justice and the American way....

Lets look at the practicalities...

In areas where CCW is allowed and prevelant, armed attacks by strangers on the street should be lower than in the urban gun denial venues where quite frankly its dog eat dog. Look at it further, even POLICE shootings are one or two rounds, so your chance of being the victim of a mass attack of armed savages and needing to do tactical reload in your CCW jurisdiction are statistically low...

Further...and mnost importantly...your weapon, under most laws(and please correct me if your law is different), is a DEFENSIVE weapon that is only to be used to halt or prevent the use of DEADLY physical force upon you IF you are unable to retreat...you cant shoot a person who punches you in the nose!

Nor can you generally play hero under the law...sure there are exceptions...for example you can use deadly physical force against another to prevent an arson for example..or to prevetn the use of deadly physical force against another..but you better be DARN sure that you are right or you are gonna be cooling your heels in the police hotel for quite some time...

Face it..you are driving down the street, here the alarm going off, and see a guy with an AK running out of a bank...are you gonna whip your car after him, throw open the door, draw your custom carry 45 and start blasting away with him....tactical reloads and all...

I think not and you are a dangerous fool if you do...rather you should do what a normal, reasonable person will do...get on that cell phone and call 911..let those who are paid to get shot at get shot at...

What is far more likely is that someone jumps at you with a knife, you cant get away, and you put one up his schnoz...you dont need a 10mm with three extra mags to do that do you...

Or some jerk off jumps into your car, threatens you with an ice pic...gonna be tough drawing that full size 1911 from an IWB isnt it...

In both scenarios you are better off shoving a 32 in your pocket than your fancy carry gun...easier to get at..and looks far less "looking for trouble" than the custom carry peice..

So guys, lets not stop talking about our favorite things...but lets temper it with a bit of reality..ya get a newbie asking "gee whats best to carry" maybe we can interject a little common sense into all of this..

And I have more than one custom carry peice too.....

 

[Blackhawk]

We're not very far apart on this, so no flames from this quarter!

 

[dave]

wild,

I see your point, and in some cases you are correct. There are some folks out there (as talked about in another thread) that just can't wait for something to happen, only to save the day. But I truely think they are in the minority.

I believe most of us simply fall into that trap of wanting to be prepaired for anything. We can't, of course, but we try. I think that most of us just want to be able to defend ourselves and our families. We tend to think things out, sometimes a little to far.

I'm sure we've all heard of that poor guy somewhere, somewhen, who lost because his mag failed, gun jammed, ran out of ammo, didn't have a knife, didn't wear body armour, didn't have a flashlight, didn't have a cell phone, didn't know how to shoot, and a hundred other reasons. Try as we might, we can't be prepaired for everything. And we don't know which thing we may need most. We just want those we love, including ourselves to make it out, of anything that happens, alive.

I think that if someone feels safer by carring an extra mag, a spare gun, or by having training, then they should do so. These things, in and of themselves, don't cause anybody harm. It's one's ACTIONS that may leave something to be desired.

 

[Triad]

I could proably come up with answers for your questions, and debate the topic, but your sig says it all.

 

[P-35/53]

I have had people laugh when I tell them I always carry a .380 or a 32 . - they always say a mouse gun hah. When I ask what they carry I have heard I keep a Beretta 92 in the truck or I have Goverment Model at home or a 44 Magnum in the trunk. The difference is I am always armed they just have the comfort of thinking they are.

 

[fivepaknh]

Wildalaska

I tend to agree with you. I don't feel the need to buy a Batman utility belt that holds three spare mags, a BUG, flashlight, pepper spray, and whatever else a good survivalist needs. I do carry the biggest caliber that my mode of dress allows, because like you said, in most defensive situation, only a few rounds are fire. If it ever comes to pulling the trigger I want the biggest caliber available, because shot placement may be difficult while I'm soiling my pants.
To need all the extra gear I look at the chain of events that would have to occur in order to use that gear.
1. I'd have to be in a life or death situation. I live in an area that it's less likely to happen than it is to some of our other members.
2. If it happens, and it could and that's why I carry, my gun/ammo/mag would have to fail at the particular moment for me to need extra gear. After 25 years of shooting, I don't think I've had a weapon fail to go bang on the first 2 or 3 shots.

If both 1 and 2 occur, then God is try to tell me something. It's my time. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just looking at the odds. I could win Power Ball too.

 

[sm]

Like Blackhawk, I too am not far away from your post.

We do have some members with real life experiences, some are in harms way , some face harms way daily in their jobs. We also have those that teach and train. We all have had Life Experiences . Regardless of Gender I learn from what this forum was created for: Share experience, strength and hope. Educate, pass on RKBA, etc. I listen, I learn, I share.

We may have Rambo's appear, just like trolls...they don't stay long,or are ignored.

IMO

 

[Nosferatu]

Wild, I agree with you 100%. There are a lot of Tactical Teds out there that think the way you described. I carry a gun with me as an absolute last resort should my life or someone's life is in immediate danger.

Even when a knife-wheeling(sp?) moron in a mall attacked me out of nowhere, it wasn't my gun that got the first nod, it was my Jujitsu training as a kid/teenager that took over. I'm more confident that my mind will get me out of trouble than my gun.

 

[coati]

Pretty wise advice, Wildalaska.

 

[JPM70535]

Thank you for injecting the thoughts that have been running through my mind while reading some of the posts about all the tactical gear carried by some of our members. I felt like I was seriously underarmed with just 8 rounds of 45 ACP and my little folding knife. Glad to hear I am not alone in believing that if it takes more than 2-3 rounds to stop a threat, more reloads are going to be too little too late.

 

[Drjones]

In areas where CCW is allowed and prevelant, armed attacks by strangers on the street should be lower than in the urban gun denial venues where quite frankly its dog eat dog

Great post overall, but I must say: did you ever think that "in areas where CCW is prevalent" that the REASON that "armed attacks by strangers" ARE lower that elsewhere is because of all the "tactical teds" out there?



:ar15:

 

[shu]

Interesting topic.
I usually have a G-26 on person, something larger in the backpack, a 357mag lever gun and 2 hundred rounds of assorted ammunition in the truck.
Goes back to the time I only had two pistols, our house (200 yards from border with Mexico) was getting broken into regularly, I was travelling alot, and the most secure place for the firearms was right next to me. Doing service calls in the local area, I might find myself in the vicinity of the range with 45 minutes to spare, thus the extra hundred rounds of 9mm under the seat.
Leaving aside the subject of quantity; once accepting the principle of individual responsibility for one's own security, and being a creature of habit, I find it simpler to have a pistol on the hip at all times rather than sometimes yes and sometimes not.

 

[2dogs]

Face it..you are driving down the street, here the alarm going off, and see a guy with an AK running out of a bank...are you gonna whip your car after him, throw open the door, draw your custom carry 45 and start blasting away with him....tactical reloads and all...

This happened to me the other day and, dang, if I didn't miss.

 

[Preacherman]

2dogs...

This subject is well illustrated in this thread on TFL. Lots of Rambo-ites chipping in, with lots of more sensible types answering. You'll have to decide for yourself where I fit in! (Rev. Rambo??? )

 

[El Tejon]

Wild,

Re: CCW, if you carry, you don't need to:

Maybe. You've never been to Gary, Indiana I gather. But you don't carry to look for trouble, unless you write for a gun rag or are a 15 year old on the Errornet. You carry and train so you do not fight. You never read about the kung fu master getting into a fight in a bar on Saturday night.

The "all you need" argument may or may not work. "All you need" is a rape whistle. Maybe. People should be aware of the horrific consequences of relying on this `tude and shoving a .38 in their pocket.

The reality, of course, is that people, not guns, fight. The key is education. There are ways to draw a full-sized 1911 when seated and even with the off hand. We practice this because we do not know what the fight will look like or where it will come from. If I did know, I would not be there.

Maybe 9 out of 10 times possession alone will suffice. We train to eliminate that 1. The more we train, the more confidence we manifest. The more confidence we possess, the less we look like a target to a potential attacker. The more we train, the less we know and the more we know can go wrong. The more we train, the less likely we are to fight.

Knowing these things you describe does not make you an aggressive wannabe mall ninja. It shows that you are aware of are the terrible things that can happen in a fight and will avoid a fight as a result. Knoweledge is power; no pride in ignorance, etc, et al, inter alia.

 

[Soap]

El Tejon pretty much said it all.

 

[Apple a Day]

Two points:
Don't know about your neck of the woods but around here cops tend to darn near empty their magazines when they are in a shooting situation. They shoot a lot more than 1 or 2 rounds. Some of them shoot more than that before their gun clears their holster!
As for "playing Rambo" , let me explain something about men- we love to mess with all things mechanical. If it's a machine then it can always be a little bit smoother/faster/bigger/whatever... It's the same reason we put compasses on the dashboards of our cars when the roadsigns tell us which way we are headed. It's the same reason women read Better Homes and Gardens. Okay, so it's silly and chances are we will never the little attachments, gizmos and doodads, but allow us our little fantasies.

 

[12-34hom]

Practice.

I wonder if Wildalaska carries insurance on his home or car or life?

CCW and the training that goes with it are a form of life iinsurance. Hopefully i will never have the need to use it, but if i do i want FULL coverage.

El Tejon also makes some excellent points on his post.

Happy New Year...

12-34hom

 

[Harold Mayo]

KSFree...oops, El Tejon said it right. You train and prepare for the UNlikelihoods, not what is likely.

When I buy an insurance policy, I spend quite a bit of time reading about my options and researching the company from which I'm buying it. I am ultra-careful in making sure the premiums are paid and all paperwork is properly filled out. When they notify me of something, I read it in context with the rest of the policy and don't just file it away. I have NEVER used any major medical coverage that I carry, have never been in an automobile accident in my adult life and, of course, have not used my life insurance policy. I do these things not because I expect to have to use the policies that I carry, but because I or my family MIGHT have to use them.

If I want to conduct my life in accordance with LIKELIHOODS, then I wouldn't carry any insurance whatsoever.

The same applies to my firearms collection and training. I will not likely EVER get in an armed confrontation, but I want to be prepared if I do. I must admit that it is fun for me, too, but that's icing on the cake. After all, how many people can say that their hobby is also something that can save their life or the lives of of their family?

On a tangent, do the training and firearms matter? Maybe, maybe not. As an armed citizen against the goblins, you are always on the defensive and that is a poor starting point. One guy with a single-shot .22 derringer or a knife who broke into my house when I wasn't there and surprised me when I came home could easily do me in, despite all of my fancy guns and training. That's reality. But should I just resign myself to playing the odds? No. That is the victim's mentality and I refuse to take that mindset if, for no other reason, than NOT wanting to be a victim.

 

[PATH]

Reality is avoiding trouble by staying aware. If you are in trouble run away! I know that if I were in a life and death situation I would probably stain my pants. I am certainly no Rambo and have no wish to be. The object is to remove ones self and or loved ones from danger as quickly as possible.

My best defense is the psycho look that I have on my face when in say a mall. My wife gets annoyed but you have to look like you are not a person to be trifled with. Being 6'6'' and 315 lbs does not hurt either.

No! I am no Rambo. I am just a guy looking to avoid problems and if encountered get away ffrom them as quickly as possible.

Oh! I carry a little Mod 36 J-frame with a speed loader in my pocket. Works for me.

 

[Bob A]

KSFree...oops, El Tejon said it right. You train and prepare for the UNlikelihoods, not what is likely.

Just like you carry car insurance which covers only what is unlikely to happen to your car, right?

There is no way to prepare for an armed attacker. If somebody wants to ambush you, there is little you can do beside avoiding it. What you should train for, IMO, is to be comfortable and proficient with a gun, when it's OK to fire (what LE calls shoot/don't shoot drills) and how to avoid trouble in the first place. The best way to survive a gunfight is by not getting into one.

Besides, the original post never mentioned not "training" or being prepared, Wildalaska just takes the position that some guys have a Tackleberry mentality and generally gravitate toward overkill. Are you going to get involved in a shootout where you need more than the 11 rounds in your weapon? You might, but what are the odds? I know it's harder to hit a moving target under combat conditions, but where did the 11 rounds go? Are you trying to kill somebody or stop an attack? Most criminals are not that dedicated anyway.

You want to "train" for an event that is so unlikely to happen that won't happen to but a few people in a lifetime, fine. But most of us have lives.

 

[2dogs]

My best defense is the psycho look that I have on my face when in say a mall. My wife gets annoyed but you have to look like you are not a person to be trifled with. Being 6'6'' and 315 lbs does not hurt either.

PATH

And you need a gun why?

I'm a scrawny 160 lb 6'. Got the psycho look down though.

 

[Cal4D4]

Closest thing to a Rambo type scene in this area would be the riots that happen after controversial court cases and major sporting events - and maybe earthquakes. Hand to hand combat with masses of goblins because you couldn't find low gear in your 18 wheeler, driving back the hordes of vandals and thugs in Koreatown, maybe a late night bus rider facing gang action at a transfer stop. All of these things are reality, some of them went quite badly. I agree that fantasy gets in the way of reality, but everyone has his own perception of what SHTF scenario they should prep for. Here in the L.A. area the traveller away from his personal property is pretty much without legal armed defense except for edged weapons. Revise tactics accordingly.:impaled:

 

[armabill]

All have good and excellent posts!

 

[cordex]

There is no way to prepare for an armed attacker.

Untrue.
Oh, if you think that all you need to do to be well defended is to tuck a gun in your pocket and you'll be prepared for anything, then you likely not be able to defend yourself against an armed attacker.
But you claim that there is no way to prepare for that situation, and that is simply false.

If somebody wants to ambush you, there is little you can do beside avoiding it.

There is a big difference between six armed men ambushing you, and preparing for a single armed attacker (say, armed with a knife).
Though I would agree, if you know in advance where you're going to be attacked don't be there. But that's just common sense.

What you should train for, IMO, is to be comfortable and proficient with a gun, when it's OK to fire (what LE calls shoot/don't shoot drills) and how to avoid trouble in the first place. The best way to survive a gunfight is by not getting into one.

Aye. Works for me.

Are you going to get involved in a shootout where you need more than the 11 rounds in your weapon? You might, but what are the odds?

Are you going to get involved in any situation where you need a gun? You might, but what are the odds? Why carry a gun at all?

I know it's harder to hit a moving target under combat conditions, but where did the 11 rounds go? Are you trying to kill somebody or stop an attack? Most criminals are not that dedicated anyway.

Never Been There or Done That, but I fail to see why carrying 15 rounds in a gun is all that more paranoid than carrying 11 ... or 3, since that's all you think would be required for the vast majority of "real" attacks?
And maybe you have the ability to consistantly one-hole them when someone else is charging you with a butcher knife, but I can't fault someone for wanting to carry more than the bare minimum.
(that said, I carry 9 in my main carry piece. secondary holds 5.)

You want to "train" for an event that is so unlikely to happen that won't happen to but a few people in a lifetime, fine.But most of us have lives.

The same could be said about training to carry a gun in the first place, no?

It's all a matter of degree. If you prefer to keep a downloaded P-32 tucked into your pocket and feel prepared for any situations you are likely to find yourself in, more power to you. If you prefer to carry 3 full-capacity handguns with 3 spare mags each about your person "just in case", that doesn't bother me either.