I loaded my first load of imr 4227 240gr Xtp shot in a handi rifle. 20.4gr cci mag primers. Now each shot the barrel is filled with smoke and when I crack the gun open it smoke spews out and the barrel is covered in unburdened powder. Will this go away as I increase charge? Gun shoots great 3 holes in almost touching but didn't like how a lot of powder wasn't burned.
Really dirty 44mag?
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Schwing
Member
I don't know where that falls in the 4227 data since I don't use it but, it is pretty normal for lighter loads to burn a little dirtier than heavier loads. Sufficient crimp is a big deal as well. If you don't apply enough crimp, the cartridge never reaches the pressure needed for good ignition.
bocefus78
Member
Normal with 4227 at the low end. It'll clean up as pressure increases.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Hodgdon recommends a starting charge weight of 22.0gr 4227 with a 240gr bullet. Your charge is somewhat below that so I can understand with its not burning cleanly.
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200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
Hodgdon? Hodgdon is now the distributor of both IMR and Winchester powders...
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=who+manufactures+4227+powder?
Only posting this reply for new reloaders like myself who're becoming familiar with the vast range of powder choices. Don't want to steer them onto some backcountry detour... without the correct names on the map.
sugarmaker
Member
It should clean up at around 23 grains.
Cheesemaker
Member
For IMR4227 20.4gr is the lowest charge in the Hornady 9th edition manual. Max is 23.7gr.
The OP started at the bottom. Work it up and see if the dirtiness improves.
OP - The pic I posted in your other thread about flare and crimp was taken when I was also loading IMR4227. I loaded 21.0gr and 22.0gr for my ever so temperamental Desert Eagle. DE's typically like close to (or at) max loads to cycle reliably. I am trying H110 too. I will work both up.
The OP started at the bottom. Work it up and see if the dirtiness improves.
OP - The pic I posted in your other thread about flare and crimp was taken when I was also loading IMR4227. I loaded 21.0gr and 22.0gr for my ever so temperamental Desert Eagle. DE's typically like close to (or at) max loads to cycle reliably. I am trying H110 too. I will work both up.
okay. sounds good, thanks for the advice.
gotboostvr
Member
I found my best success with Starline brass, WLPP, 23.Xgr 4227 and a Hornady 240gr XTP and a good strong crimp.
20-22gr 4227 gave me similar results to what you're seeing.
Bump the charge up a little and watch it get better.
20-22gr 4227 gave me similar results to what you're seeing.
Bump the charge up a little and watch it get better.
the Black Spot
Member
Three holes almost touching? 100 yds? If that is 100 yd group i wouldnt care how dirty the barrel got if i got good groups.
I have a 44 special load with blue dot that shoots great, but has a few unburned flakes, but i dont care cuz its accurate. Just my 2 pennies.
I put 3 in the top diamond at 50yards of sand bags last night. these weren't a few unburned flakes it was bad. I think my muzzleloader looked cleaner than that barrel.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/accessories/targets
http://www.burrisoptics.com/accessories/targets
buck460XVR
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In my .44s and .460, IMR4227 likes to be run nearly compressed or lightly compressed with a heavy crimp, for best burn. It seems to produce the best accuracy for me at that charge rate. This is where it burns the cleanest also. My hunting load charge for my 77/44 under 240 gr pills is 23.+. This is with Nosler JSPs/JHPs or Hornady XTPs.
MovedWest
Member
I wouldn't go more than 22.8gr of 4227 with a magnum primer if the recommended load is 24gr. Always back off the load by 5% when substituting magnum primers.
-MW
-MW
well I ran it to 22.3gr today with cci mag primer and still dirty. a lot of powder in the barrel and unburned in the cases. i crimped them pretty good IMO today. seated them and crimped separate but it seemed the crimp wasn't uniform. i have a trimmer on the way so I'm going to hold off and make sure these cases are uniform before i do any more.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm sorry to disagree but 5% is way overkill. Sometimes when using a magnum primers in a handgun cartridge with an average of 5.0gr powder charge I can reduce the charge by .1gr and achieve the same velocities.
A magnum primer will butler slightly longer and slightly hotter but it will not create a nuclear explosion. Don't let a word scare you just because the market experts make you pay more for magnum and +P ammo.
Damon555
Member
It would be nice if you could post some pics......Crimping is not that difficult even with mixed brass....brand new brass such as yours should not need to be trimmed. The only time I've ever trimmed a handgun case was to turn some 44 mags into 44 specials.
Sounds to me like you are making simple mistakes that could be corrected if we knew exactly what was going wrong in your loading process.
Sounds to me like you are making simple mistakes that could be corrected if we knew exactly what was going wrong in your loading process.
Airman Basic
Member
Bullet tension in the case is equally important as crimp. IME, too much crimp can actually decrease bullet tension.
buck460XVR
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I agree, especially with 4227. Because of it's very slow burn rate, it takes a full case to perform. In a .44 mag case with a 240 gr. pill, you cannot get enough of it under it to be dangerous or even over max SAMMI pressure. This is why, for me, I do not use it in .357 except for milder loads, you cannot get enough of it in the small .357 case to get real magnum performance. Even compressed, I sacrifice some velocity with my magnum loads compared to H110/W296, but in .44 and .460, the consistency and accuracy makes up for the little bit of lost velocity. For hunting deer, IMHO, accuracy is the key in those calibers over a few more FPS.
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
I may have asked the OP, or it may have been another, about why it was he chose a magnum primer over, say, a large pistol primer. He replied, "cold weather".
The above notwithstanding, and in more-normal temperature conditions, I would think a magnum primer used with a powder that has the characteristics described here would make the problem worse. Why? I don't know the correct terminology as it applies to firearms' metallic cartridge ballistics, but in a 4-cycle automotive engine where a spark plug is the source of ignition a "too-hot" spark can cause "cavitation" and incomplete combustion (granted, the comparison may be apples to oranges but I know I'm not reaching too far when I read of rifle cartridges loaders talk of the tendency in some cases of a magnum primer to "spike" through a powder charge).
Too, the crimp issue is important as I am quickly learning here. As Airman Basic noted, "Bullet tension in the case is equally important as crimp. IME, too much crimp can actually decrease bullet tension." We don't want the bullet leaving the brass too soon/before the powder charge ignition peak...?
Anyhoo... interesting stuff. It applies to my situation here because I had been concerned with mere cosmetics when inquiring as to why my RCBS carbide sizer die in .41 reduces the outside diameter of my brass to the degree that it does (almost .002" smaller than never-fired commercially-loaded cartridges).
Neck tension!
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