Reason to stop carrying?

[fastbolt]

Let's remember that there's no requirement for someone to wish to, or actually, defend themselves.

Having the right to defend oneself must also include the right to decide not to do so.

I've known at least my fair share of adults who sincerely believed they should not, could not and would not ever use force against another person, even in defense of themselves (or their families). Anathema to them.

The decisions of those citizens must be given the same respect as those who decide to train, prepare and plan to be able to use (reasonable) force in defense of themselves, their families and even an innocent third person (as allowed by law).

Besides, some people just don't seem to have common sense or be able to make good decisions, stress or not. Why would anyone necessarily want them armed in public? Some of them drive motor vehicles, which is scary enough.

 

[tipoc]

Three vermin in our town kidnapped a lady for her car, put her in the trunk, hauled her to a secluded place, took her out and murdered her. Used the car as a getaway in the robbery of a local branch bank-----the one my friend frequented and had just left a few minutes earlier.

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

Scared him so badly, he stopped carrying all together!

Your friend did not see what occurred so how can he have decided that he would have engaged? Your description reads that the kidnapping and killing happened somewhere else but they used the car to rob a bank later. Did the incident happen in the bank?, the parking lot? If you don't, or your friend I mean, know exactly what happened you can't know whether having a piece and drawing it would have helped or really made the situation worse. May have been best to video the license plate and the vehicle and vid the people involved and call the cops with that.

Having a piece on you doesn't mean you are prepared to defend yourself and others. Often it gets in the way. It has for your friend and he did not pull it and wasn't even there. He's looking at it as the center piece of his thinking here. A piece is only one part of it and should be the least and last option. He was not a part of the incident but his take away involves the gun and revolves around that.

If you aren't prepared to defend yourself without a piece...the piece will only be an obstacle. It will be the center of your conception of self defense when it's only a small piece. That's the mistake your partner makes. He wasn't there, he can't know what was to be done but he's decided to not carry because he may have pulled the gun and got shot. That may be the best choice for him, actually

tipoc

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Let's remember that there's no requirement for someone to wish to, or actually, defend themselves.

Having the right to defend oneself must also include the right to decide not to do so.

I've known at least my fair share of adults who sincerely believed they should not, could not and would not ever use force against another person, even in defense of themselves (or their families). Anathema to them.

The decisions of those citizens must be given the same respect as those who decide to train, prepare and plan to be able to use (reasonable) force in defense of themselves, their families and even an innocent third person (as allowed by law).

Besides, some people just don't seem to have common sense or be able to make good decisions, stress or not. Why would anyone necessarily want them armed in public? Some of them drive motor vehicles, which is scary enough.

Best response thus far.


I also agree with Tipoc. It would seem that your friend has used strategical scenarios to scare him away from carrying.

It's ironic to most on here because most here would use those same scenarios to further think and plan ahead, not discourage.

But, as Fastbolt said, everyone is entitled to their own decisions and in some cases it's probably a good thing.

 

[RX-79G]

For some people (and maybe most everyone) carrying a weapon is a burden. You have burden to do right, you have to not make mistake that would cause an accident, you have to know where the gun is when it isn't on you and whether it is loaded or not.

I can understand growing tired of those heavy emotions and deciding to go on vacation, like everyone else. Explaining it like he did is his attempt to rationalize the decision, but I think it isn't just about consequences.

After he's done that for awhile, he may come back to CC.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

That it totally a backwards thought process on behalf of your friend.

May make me want a larger capacity firearm than a J frame but it would make me want to carry MORE not less.

 

[jimbo555]

I bet the woman that got kidnapped would have been happy to have the j - frame.

 

[Red Wind]

A panic attack followed by irrational reasoning. Being a Medical Tech for 6 years, I saw way too much of this. Therapy is advised if the paranoia continues. Don't push it on him yourself, OP.

Sometimes the condition will last a lifetime.

 

[BJJ223]

Dumbest thing I have read this month.

Carry a bigger gun. Carry the same gun with extra ammo. Carry a big knife as a back up (they don't run out of ammo).

Most importantly, don't love your life so much that you would choose to be a coward over engaging evil.

You are going to die anyways eventually. Why not make it count?

 

[WYO]

Your friend did not see what occurred so how can he have decided that he would have engaged? Your description reads that the kidnapping and killing happened somewhere else but they used the car to rob a bank later.

Good point. It sounds like it dawned on the guy after the fact that the bank robbers were really, really bad people rather than semi-harmless bank robbers, and that his pre-determined thought process of intervening with his trusty J frame against 3 perps would have likely gotten him killed. It sounds like he viewed his gun as a talisman. Some more reflection is in order on the nature of bad people and the true risks of intervention before deciding whether and/or how to deal with them.

 

[george burns]

Some folks are not meant to carry a firearm. Your friend may be one.If a fight broke out, likely everyone heads for a door or windowm not try to shoot it out in a bank.
If you don't have a gun, you can end up like the lady in the trunk anyway.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just because you carry doesn't mean you have to shoot in every situation and that is your choice. Even during a bank robbery, if your life is not in danger, you don't have to shoot.

You carry to have a choice to shoot when and if your life is in danger.

I like having choices in life.

Exactly! What in the OP would require his friend to "engage them?" This is a good question since this friend said he would be shot. I don't care what he does to himself but he has no right to endanger others and possibly get them killed. Engaging the bad guys would have caused them to shoot too and most probably all 3 of them would have responded with the possibility of others in the bank being shot or killed.

From what has been posted here I'm relieved his friend decided to no longer carry a gun. People like him give us all a bad name.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Definitely not something that would cause me to stop carrying, but hey, our brains work differently. We are individuals and your friend's thought process is different than mine.

I have no stones to throw, but I am much more worried about something happening to my family and me not having a weapon to try and stop it. That is something I don't know if I could live with myself after.

 

[jdc1244]

He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

Wrong decision.

Given his propensity for making poor decisions, it’s just as well he’s no longer carrying.

 

[4evernbljns]

Dumbest thing I have read this month.

Carry a bigger gun. Carry the same gun with extra ammo. Carry a big knife as a back up (they don't run out of ammo).

Most importantly, don't love your life so much that you would choose to be a coward over engaging evil.

You are going to die anyways eventually. Why not make it count?

Amen,brother. How to say this w/o sounding fatalistic? Past life threatening "incidents" I have found that accepting that I may be gravely injured or killed I found that fear leaves and I function like a machine doing the job that needs to be done. I also find that after the adrenalin wears off I shake like hell. The choice to be unarmed/defenseless because of a "what if" doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Jack19]

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.
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How many bad guys is your weapon?

A J-frame is a one, maybe two, bad guy gun. IF you do your part, and, IF they are your run of the mill dumb ass robbers.

If you're facing the guys like those from the Charlie Hebdo attacks, you might want to bring more ammunition.

From Wilipedia:

"On 7 January 2015 at about 11:30 local time, two brothers, Saïd and Chérif Kouachi, forced their way into the offices of the French satirical weekly newspaper Charlie Hebdo in Paris. Armed with assault rifles and other weapons, they killed 11 people and injured 11 others in the building. After leaving, they killed a French National Police officer outside the building. The gunmen identified themselves as belonging to the Islamist terrorist group Al-Qaeda's branch in Yemen, who took responsibility for the attack. Several related attacks followed in the Île-de-France region, where a further five were killed and 11 wounded."

How many bad guys, these days, is your fear? And with what are they armed?

The world has changed.

I won't not engage with 5 rounds, forgive the double negative, but more is better if you're going to be a lead magnet.

 

[Warp]

Had a friend who was into guns in a big way for many, many years. Had a CCW and carried all the time, mostly a S&W J-frame.

Three vermin in our town kidnapped a lady for her car, put her in the trunk, hauled her to a secluded place, took her out and murdered her. Used the car as a getaway in the robbery of a local branch bank-----the one my friend frequented and had just left a few minutes earlier.

It scared him. He decided that, had he been there, he would have engaged with his 5-shot J-frame and would have been outnumbered, outgunned and likely shot.

Scared him so badly, he stopped carrying all together!

Not likely my reaction. Anybody else have reacted that way? Anybody else ever been in a similar situation? I would appreciate any comments and/or insight regarding the situation. Thanks.

That seems like faulty logic -to me-, but if he realizes he is not going to make good decisions on when and how to use or not use the gun he is making the right choice. No different than hotheads who don't carry because they know, whether they admit it or not, that they would choose to get into an altercation and pull the gun.

 

[stchman]

So the OP's friend felt outgunned so he decided to STOP carrying? Get a firearm with greater capacity.

 

[agtman]

Sounds to me like he is wise to not carry until he sorts this out for himself.

This.

Until he gets it sorted out in his head, he's probably better off not carrying concealed.

The last things needed before acting in self-defense are indecisiveness and second-guessing oneself, ... two things that never seem to hamper the bad guy(s).

 

[IlikeSA]

It sounds like he needs to quit cold turkey, like he did, or get some training to re-instill confidence and buy a new pistol. Indecisiveness in action/reaction and lack of proper tools and the knowledge of how and when to use them will get a person killed.

 

[fastbolt]

That seems like faulty logic -to me-, but if he realizes he is not going to make good decisions on when and how to use or not use the gun he is making the right choice. No different than hotheads who don't carry because they know, whether they admit it or not, that they would choose to get into an altercation and pull the gun.

Yes. Absolutely.

If only more people were able to recognize their inability to make good decisions, and/or know they're not really able to know what to do in bad situations.

Then again, there's apparently a lot of people who seem to think they know how to operate a shopping cart in the market, or park their car in a parking lot ... but they're wrong.

 

[DPris]

I am unable to comprehend such an absolute lack of cognitive ability.

"I carry a defensive tool that has limited capabilities. I suddenly realize that, so I decide that rather than upgrading to a more effective tool, I will deprive myself of ANY defensive tool and render myself totally defenseless against anyone who wishes to offer me bodily harm."

It boggles.
Denis

 

[Warp]

I am unable to comprehend such an absolute lack of cognitive ability.

"I carry a defensive tool that has limited capabilities. I suddenly realize that, so I decide that rather than upgrading to a more effective tool, I will deprive myself of ANY defensive tool and render myself totally defenseless against anyone who wishes to offer me bodily harm."

It boggles.
Denis

Small point: You should not be "totally defenseless" just because you don't have a firearm.

As gun people it's easy for us to say "just carry a 15+ rounds semi auto and maybe a spare magazine too" but I guess not everybody thinks that way (and not that any size pistol or any number of mags would make acting in that situation advisable, necessarily).

It is still a bit weird, I think most people would just spend a little time thinking about the fact that their gun isn't a solution to every problem, not even every potentially lethal violent problem, and realize that thinking before drawing is a good idea...I guess this guy just doesn't expect to be thinking under stress...and maybe that isn't so uncommon? IDK

 

[stoky]

I am unable to comprehend such an absolute lack of cognitive ability.

Dumbest thing I have read this month

He should take all his guns to the nearest megalopolis buy back, and carry a cop around instead.

 

[Deanimator]

He should take all his guns to the nearest megalopolis buy back, and carry a cop around instead.

...with the understanding that the cop has no legal duty to intervene on his behalf.

 

[il_10]

I think he made the call that was right for him in that moment. He recognized that his concept of self defense was more aggressive than it should have been, and the way he was thinking about it could have gotten him killed had he been there. If there was an instance in which he could use his gun, he had convinced himself that he was going to. Who here hasn't won a million unlikely gunfights in his or her own head?

But practically speaking, we generally think and train the other way because we study these concepts. If there's a situation in which I HAVE to clear leather? I'll be glad I have it. But if I can, in any possible way, get myself out of the situation, then that's what I'm going to do.

Once he comes to the conclusion that you can be prepared for both cases, and make the choice to fight or flee(!) in the moment, he may come back around and start carrying again. And he'll be wiser for the experience.