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Reason to stop carrying?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by critter, Sep 10, 2016.

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  1. pharmer

    pharmer Member

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    I thought this would be about "mental fitness." I mean if you're in the checkout line at WalMart and some pimpleteen with a topknot gets his debit card declined, you unholster and fire a warning shot into his right Converse, that would be time to leave the gun at home. Joe
     
  2. el Godfather

    el Godfather Member

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    I think he may be suffering with some psychological issues here. The decision hardly seems Tactital.
     
  3. mikemyers

    mikemyers Member

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    Seems to me, that anyone in that situation would have been scared/terrified. I have a CCW permit now, but don't (yet) carry, but I'd like to change one word in what you wrote. Instead of "would", as highlighted above, a better word is "could".

    Unless I've missed something in what I learned, nobody other than a police officer is obligated to do anything. As others have pointed out, having a weapon and not using it is better than not having it, and really needing it. (Something I need to think about as well.)

    (.....and added later, if his life wasn't threatened, maybe the prudent thing was to do nothing, and leave it for the police to sort out later.)


    Having said that, the only things I shoot are paper targets. I'm still debating whether or not to actually "carry". I've considered walking around with an empty holster, to see if I would ever get used to it. So, I'm probably not qualified to say anything much here. Yet.
     
  4. george burns

    george burns Member

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    This man obviously was carrying a gun for the wrong reason, or thought he would never be in a position to need to actually use it. It's better for him if he doesn't carry. It doesn't need to make sense to anyone else. But there are many out there who carry because they feel either safer, or it gives them an air of superiority, those reasons become in question when an actual incident happens to them or someone close to them.
    If you can't kill, then you should not carry, it may sound violent, but this is a violent society we live in, and not everyone is prepared to risk life and limb for a reason that they may never thought would be in question to them. You see it in the military and the Police force and they have had training meant to address this, but some just can't kill another person, and are just too freaked out , it's fight or fright. The bit about carrying a hi cap mag, has nothing to do with it. That's just an excuse, he decided that this was "real", and wanted no part of it, just as many folks who carry because their fiends do, or they feel it's cool to have that shiney piece of metal to show off. Or just can't make on the spot decisions and don't realize they may have to. This encompasses a lot of people who we all know that can't make decisions.
    How many folks have a friend or neighboor who just can't decide on what color to paint his home for the past 2 years, or if he wants a new car or not. That type of thing is ok in normal situations, but if it carries through into second guessing everything you do, it is a bad mixture for a man or woman who needs to make that 1 second life or death decision. Diminished capacity plays a part as people age, which is why one must practice and have a plan to implement if the worse occurs, or just give it up.
    Like who to shoot first, and how many rounds to fire , if any. Can you hit the first 1 or 2 guys before they even see that you are there, "can you fire without warning, is a gun already out, do you know they are bad guys and not undercover cops", all this information has to be processed in a second, that's all you have if they are criminals.
    Someone once asked me, "a tough guy", what would you do if I came up to you with a gun, and demanded your payroll, I said I would shoot you dead in less than a second. So do you want to take that chance. Plus I am not alone, my partner would shoot you before I did. He looked at me and said, you aren't kidding are you, I said no I am not.
    Now unforyunately now he knew he had to shoot me first, but I knew he was not a murderer, maybe a stickup guy, but fact is you have a second to shoot someone before they realize what just happened, if the guy knew you were armed, he would shoot you first, so if your still standing there with your gun on your hip, do you really want him to decide if you live or die, or can you move and shoot fast enough that if you are hit it will be a superficial wound, at best, "hopefully", decisions must be made, and some don't want or need that kind of decision in their life. They are fine with "do you want fries with that". Stay safe
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  5. TAC

    TAC Member

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    I know a few people that have a CPL, and never carry! One admitted they have no intentions of using their gun in a self defense. That's it, no explanation, just because.
     
  6. Stevie-Ray

    Stevie-Ray Member

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    I doubt that would have had any effect on me, other than maybe opting for my G26 with it's G17 mag for a while, other than my normal primary of Kimber UCDP. Extremely fast-firing double-taps, though those aren't usually what I'm looking for with the Kimber-just it's pinpoint accuracy.
     
  7. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    Tactical awareness is key, and is about the only time I don't cringe at the T word. If you find yourself jammed into the scenario where you are armed and are a bystander in a violent event, first step is to count the threats, second is to assess the threats (weaponry especially). 3rd step is to determine if you CAN help or if action would be counterproductive. 4the step is to consider 3rd step and decide if you SHOULD take action. 5th step is to talke action based on step 4...whether that is observe and be a good witness, be a hero, or run like a bunny runs from a dog.

    Very very few situations make sense for a bystander to insert themselves into a situation by shooting anyone.

    As for your buddy who decided to stop carrying, that's like deciding not to wear a seatbelt because he wants to avoid a wreck. It's a silly decision based on an emotional response. If he's that shaken up by it he may need to seek counseling.
     
  8. Blacksmoke

    Blacksmoke Member

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    When I closed my restaurant and stopped carrying cash to the bank, 45 miles away, I let my license go. I did not feel a need to carry a gun any more. Fortunately, this area has been spared the violent confrontations which urban communities experience. When I do to town (Taos, NM or Santa Fe) I keep situational awareness on top line. So far, I have not seen potential threats. That does not mean something bad will never occur.
     
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I NEVER assume that ANY place is "safe".

    I'm sure that that doctor in Cheshire, CT THOUGHT he lived in a "safe" neighborhood... until a couple of animals showed up and beat him half to death and raped and burned to death his wife and two daughters.

    My town's anti-criminal force field went on the fritz decades ago. Any place without one isn't "safe", and police "protection" of individuals is a fairy tale on a par with the tooth fairy and the great pumpkin.
     
  10. Tcruse

    Tcruse Member

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    Your case certainly brings up the issue of being mentally prepared. For me, I spent a lot of time and thought prior to becoming an armed citizen on exactly the questions here.
    1) Would I have the "courage" to actually use deadly force against a person?
    2) Would I be prepared for the "aftermath" of a police investigation?
    3) Would I not hesitate to use deadly force when justified?
    4) Would I recognize the conditions necessary for the use of deadly force and not second guess my decision?

    All of these and many others need to be answered prior to the need.
     
  11. DaisyCutter

    DaisyCutter Member

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    I once got dispatched to a large barrio street fight, which like 99% of fights had cleared out by the time I rolled up. As I stepped out of my patrol car, the loser of the fight stepped out of his house with a 9mm to re-engage the winner. He saw me and immediately unloaded the gun in my direction. All his rounds went way low.

    Welcome to the suck.

    I drew, yelled for him to drop the gun. He dropped the gun and ran. My only gunfight and I didn't even get off a shot. I did corner him in a house and he's now in DOC.

    The lesson I learned above is that survival is a crapshoot. My mag capacity and caliber didn't matter. A J-frame is better than nothing. Even a Glock with a 33 round mag is no guarantee trouble won't find you with your pants down.


    FWIW, I'm a fatal accident investigator now, and I get called out to fatal scenes a couple times a week. None of the deceased drivers/pedestrians/bicyclists knew that given day was their last.

    Daily survival is more of a crapshoot than most people realize. People fret endlessly about the "bullet to bad guy ratio", but never consider the guy driving the Peterbilt in the rearview mirror... hoping to finish this run so he can afford to repair his air brakes, or the 90 mph 2003 Chevy Malibu that's going to run the red light and t-bone you because they just stole $18.99 of Bud Light from Quickiemart. They are coming at 130+ feet per second, 3800 lbs, aimed directly at your earhole... As you trundle toward the green light ahead. The upshot is you won't even see it coming.

    If you're condition orange at Denny's and condition white on the roadway, then perhaps it's time to revisit the decision making paradigm. (Sorry for the tangent, but it's meant for perspective)


    A j-frame is ample insurance for running errands.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
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  12. whatnickname

    whatnickname Member

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    Agree completely. His choice to make and I will stand by him.
     
  13. PabloJ

    PabloJ member

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    I don't need a handgun where I live, work or frequent. I don't see the need to have something extra to worry about. I keep my R9 in locked night stand drawer.
     
  14. cal44mag

    cal44mag Member

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    I've never been in that situation.

    If it happened to me, I think I'd do a couple things:

    Either carry a bigger gun, or a second J frame.

    Go take training classes in firearms use and how best to deal with situations like the one you mentioned.

    I don't think I'd intervene to stop a bank robbery -- especially if there were multiple robbers. I'm not risking my life to save the bank money.

    If the bank robbers started shooting people, then that's another story.
     
  15. phil dirt

    phil dirt Member

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    I actually had to fire a weapon in self defense one time in the 40+ years I've been carrying. A big German Shepard was about to tear me up, but instead, I was carrying a .380 caliber, Model 34 Beretta, and not wanting to shoot the dog, I fired a round, at a distance of about 4 feet, right between his front paws. That dog's reaction was to do a complete summersault and high tail it in the other direction. Since then, I've carried everyday nearly everywhere I've gone. Recently, a good friend of mine was attacked by a hatchet wielding assailant while in the local 7-11. My friend shot and killed the attacker, thus saving himself and an employee from what would have otherwise been a totally different outcome. If I ever re-consider carrying for my own self defense, my friend's experience will, no doubt, put a stop to that foolish notion.
     
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  16. azrocks

    azrocks Member

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    If your friend believes the mere possession of a handgun is enough to override his self-control, then he made the correct choice. Both for himself and everyone else around him.
     
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  17. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    Once upon a time it was difficult or impossible to get a concealed carry permit/license. Now for most of us it is not.

    Concealed does not mean undetectable it only means 'obscured from view'. I really don't understand why people don't or won't carry a suitable gun in a suitable caliber. Bulges in one's clothing are perfectly legal, even the outline of a gun under a t-shirt is not illegal (almost anywhere concealed carry is legal).

    So why the nervousness? Are they ashamed that they carry? Are they afraid of the police (who cannot detain them for legal activity)?

    Why not carry a better firearm even if it conceals poorly? That has to be better than not carrying at all.
     
  18. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Sounds like he hadnt worked out the whole what do I do scenario.
    He needs more education
     
  19. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I definitely agree with you that carrying a more suitable gun is preferable to not carrying at all. However, some folks get pretty nervous if they print. I just recently felt the need to step up to a larger gun with higher capacity, and am relearning how to carry, and to put the notion out of my mind that everyone under the sun is spotting my gun and staring at me as a result.

    The OP's friend though seems to have a concern that simply carrying a gun is going to cause him to be more brazen and more likely to engage a situation that he should not, regardless of the capacity of his gun. If he realizes carrying any gun is going to make him more likely to do something foolish, or to possibly make a bad situation worse, I'm glad to hear the gentleman is considering whether or not carrying any gun is a good idea.
     
  20. workgun

    workgun Member

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    3 things then I'll retreat back into the internetery.

    1. I've never known anyone to emerge from a fight saying "man...I'm glad that gun was so small and the capacity so light".

    2. The tool that you carry should be benchmarked against experience, expectation and skill. The latter being a responsibility and the former (both) being inseparably tied and constantly monitored.

    3. If, when and what tool to carry in defense of ones self (and/or others) is a deeply personal consideration and I applaud anyone that takes it seriously enough to ponder along the lines being discussed here.

    Best,
    -WG
     
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  21. Blacksmoke

    Blacksmoke Member

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    I agree that no place is "safe". There are areas which do not experience much street violence but that does not mean it will not happen.

    For example, I live on a small farm which borders a two lane highway. There is no one around for about one mile. If anything happened to me, it would be a long time before anyone knew about it. Over the years I have had some odd visitors who came off the highway. For folks driving south my place is the first habitation they encounter after about 18 miles of sagebrush. So, I used to get people stopping here to report livestock on the road, elk on the road, UFOs spotted, they ran of gas or just broke down. Most of them were just normal people, but I have had a couple of suspicious types stop. Since I am alone and my old dog is not as alert as she once was, I started carrying on my place.

    Agreed that "police protection" is non-existent. The County and State officers rarely come to this area unless summoned and then it can be an hour or half a day before they get there.
     
  22. cmcampbell

    cmcampbell Member

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    Why choose to be more helpless?

    You can choose not to engage or to engage if armed. If unarmed you may be unable to save a loved one.

    Know what you can do with your carry gear. Choose, as much as possible, carry gear that optimizes your ability to do good fast work.
     
  23. flphotog

    flphotog Member

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    ^^^This, I rarely carry less than 15 rounds on board and at least one extra mag.
     
  24. tubeshooter

    tubeshooter Member

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    I had a situation a little earlier this year, and it has made me think about this thread ever since.

    Thankfully I am okay and no shots were fired.


    I guess what I want to say is that a lot of people may assume that they are fully prepared to defend their life or that of another. After my situation, I think I understand the doubt from the OP's friend a little better. It might seem illogical or counter-intuitive to some (many) that choose to be armed. I kind of thought that way, too. But knowing that being armed may mean certain realities that you just don't really think about until you have been in a situation can be overwhelming for some. I choose to carry, but I have a new and different perspective on it now.


    I don't know - I just wanted to communicate this to the degree that I was willing to dig down 4 pages into the subfolder to find this and post. I will never forget that day. Thanks for listening.
     
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  25. mikemyers

    mikemyers Member

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    There are many reasons for wanting a CCW permit.

    Should a tornado or hurricane hit, and should you be worried about looters coming to get you, that might be a time you would want to carry.

    In Florida, having the CCW permit means you can buy a gun without the waiting period others go through.

    In Florida, if you live in a condo, and need to carry your gun to your car through the "common elements" (hallways, elevator, etc.) technically you are violating Florida law (until they fix this).



    Regarding the original post, if you've got a small weapon with 5 shots, and a group of armed people are threatening others, it would be prudent to consider "the odds" before doing something.

    It would also be smart to consider the consequences if you do draw your weapon, even if you're in "the right". Things might be seen very differently by our Justice System.
     
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