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Recoil is moving my balls ...

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by SleazyRider, Mar 28, 2011.

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  1. SleazyRider

    SleazyRider Member

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    I've noticed that the balls in the cylinder of my 1858 Remmy move a bit forward under recoil, especially if I use a filler over the 24 grains of FFF black powder to bring the ball closer to the front of the cylinder. I've even had a ball work its way out and fall to the ground. :eek: I use a loading press to load the cylinder out of the gun, and a nice lead ring gets sheared off the .454 Hornady balls, so I believe they are sized correctly for the gun.

    Specifically, here's my question: Can the use of Crisco or other lubricant over the ball contribute to the balls moving in the cylinder under recoil? Some folks, I've heard, seal up the chamber with a drop of motor oil over the ball. Perhaps more importantly, if the balls move forward, could this gap cause an unsafe condition?

    As always, I appreciate your thoughts on this!
     
  2. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    that happens to me when i shoot big shotguns. it is rather uncomfortable :p oh wait, your talking about a revolver. lol
     
  3. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Yes, that's been reported to happen due to lubrication on the chamber walls.
    The lubrication probably migrates due to the heat, especially if the chambers are not swabbed dry in between loading each cylinder full.
    Hopefully if the chamber walls are wiped dry then the balls will stop creeping forward.
    Dry wads, over powder cards or lube pills can be used instead of lube over the ball.
    Or try swabbing the chambers dry between each loading.
    In your case the thicker and waxier the ball lube is the better, that is if any lube and/or filler is going to be used at all. And lube pills or "lube cookies" are placed under the ball instead of over it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  4. Phantom Captain

    Phantom Captain Member

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    Let me ask you this SleazyRider, is your Remmy stainless or the blued version?

    I own and shoot 10 different cap and ball revolvers and the only one I have that I've encountered this happening with is my stainless remmy.
     
  5. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

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    se fla i love claymores 01/sot
    hold your balls tighter
     
  6. ROAshooter

    ROAshooter member

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    Here is something for you to check... experince with a brand new Ruger Old Army...when the 5.5 barrels hit the market. Like you I was having bullet creep to the point it would lock up the cyclinder. And like you I got a very even lead ring...shaved..when I pressed the balls into the cyclinder. What I discovered..buy using my dial caliper...that the face of the cyclinder had been milled with a slight burr...so the shaved ball....was now smaller...not by much..but enough...so it really did not get full contact with the inner walls of the cylinder. I used my RCBS case trimmer....the little hand model...to very lightly ream each chamber opening....the bullet creep disappeared..
     
  7. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Yes, it can.
    Yes, it can.

    My first thought was tapered chamber walls; it wouldn't be the first time. ROAshooter came up with another possibility, which I think is more likely the case. Check that out first. If that doesn't pan out, or if correcting it is outside the budget for now, change to a dry lubed wad under the ball and leave out the Crisco or grease.
     
  8. Black Toe Knives

    Black Toe Knives Member

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    Get bigger balls. This will make the surface area on lead and wall wider.
     
  9. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    I have an older Stainless Steel 'UBERTI' Remington New Model .44 Cap & Ball Revolver, and, I have not seen any Ball creep with it, and, I have so far only shot full house Loads.

    Examine the Cylinder Bores, and, Mike them if possible, looking carefully to see if they get larger or smaller or deviate however so, as they go in from the front edge.
     
  10. SleazyRider

    SleazyRider Member

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    Some very good suggestions here, several of which sent me scurrying out to the garage to break out my old set of small-hole gauges and mics, which haven't been used since I rebuilt my old small-block back in high school. I checked out all the holes, and the bores are parallel with no burr. It's not stainless, either. And the reason I hate to go to a larger diameter bore is because my loading press is really maxed out in terms of strength, I think, and a larger bullet might bend the loading lever. I haven't used the loading level on the gun simply because I don't want to stress it unnecessarily.

    I would, however, like to see a little bit more of a chamfer on the front edge of the cylinder bores, and may consider putting one in if other remedies fail. Maybe that would compress the lead a bit more rather than shave it off.

    I'm going to dry some "dry" loads tomorrow, that is, Wonder Wads over powder with no Crisco. Quite frankly, I'm not quite sure exactly how these wads lubricate since they go through the barrel after the bullet, but lots of folks swear by them.

    Thanks for your suggestions folks; I'll report back.
     
  11. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    The 'lubrication' is to soften fouling, not ease the bullet's passage through the bore.
     
  12. scrat

    scrat Member

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    i would try .457
     
  13. Hellgate

    Hellgate Member

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    I vote for ROAshooter's suggestion. If you are shaving a ring and the balls still migrate forward then the balls are too small of a diameter which can only happen if they are being shaved smaller. Put a little bit of taper or chamfer on the mouths of the chambers. Also ramming the balls a little harder may swell them enough to grip the walls better as well as getting larger diameter balls for a longer bearing surface. Basically, you want to just slightly "crown" the chambers. Also Cream of Wheat has very little sponginess compared to corn meal that might expand after compressing with the ball and push them a bit forward.
     
  14. Black Toe Knives

    Black Toe Knives Member

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    If you are maxing out you loading press. You lead is way to hard. Even with .457 ball it should be an ease. Lead just isn't that hard. Are you making you own bullets?
    Please don't chamfer your cylinders. This will cause you nothing but problems. The sharp edges on cylinder are there to size the bullet. It makes the seal and sizes the bullet to go down the barrel. Forcing an oversize bullet down a cylinder or the barrel is bad news. The chamfer cylinder will also cause an expansion area for the over size bullet, so it is even more oversize as it leaves the cylinder and enters the barrel.
     
  15. SleazyRider

    SleazyRider Member

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    Those .457 bullets sound like a good idea and no, I don't cast my own ... yet. That's good to know, Mykeal, and I thank you for that information. Removing the black powder residue has been very easy with hot soapy water, and I usually follow up with some Hoppes, which gets everything spotless.
     
  16. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    I don't understand. You say it causes 'nothing but problems' - what problems? Why is forcing an oversize bullet into a chamber or barrel 'bad news'? Many people (including Sam'l Colt and F.LL.Pietta) have chamfered their chamber mouths and report no problems or 'bad news' - what are they missing?

    An 'expansion area'? Are you saying the ball increases in diameter as it transits the chamfer area? I might agree that a round ball obdurates from the expanding gas if it's at rest, but not if it's moving - how is that possible? And isn't it desirable to have the ball oversize to the groove diameter when it enters the bore, so that the ball engages the rifling and prevents blow-by? Isn't that why people ream their chambers to be oversize?
     
  17. Hellgate

    Hellgate Member

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    All of my Euroarms Remingtons have fairly large but shallow bevels on the chambers that extend almost 1/8" into the mouth. They came that way from the factory. No ball creep. If there is an overhang of metal from milling the cylinder face, chamfering is gonna be the fix. He only needs to make .01"-.02" of bevel. That isn't gonna cause any problem. It'll eliminate the problem. If it doesn't fix it, no real harm is done.
     
  18. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Member

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    The mouth of the cylinder chambers should be beveled. This for accurate
    shooting and no ball creep. This is fact, not armchair "experts" opion.
     
  19. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    Does this occur only when you load into clean chambers? Are you popping a cap on each chamber before loading it after the last shooting/cleaning session? There should not be any lube in the chamber in the first place, but that should dry out any lube that might have been overlooked. After the first cylinder full has been fired, there should be enough fouling inside the chambers to discourage ball creep for subsequent loadings. Hornady balls should be pure lead, but if you are loading any projectiles other than pure lead balls or conicals, they may not mush out as much during seating, and therefore have less friction with the chamber walls. I would not normally think that 24 grains is too heavy a charge, but you might experiment with smaller charges and see how low you have to go to reduce recoil sufficiently to eliminate the problem.

    I think the .457 ball will probably solve your problems, but if it doesn't, you might start checking to see if the chamber diameters are uniform all the way down. You might also check to see if it is just one troublesome chamber, or are all of them creeping.
     
  20. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

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    I've been using 35 grains of FFFg, lubed felt wads, .454 balls, and sometimes Bore Butter on top of all that in my 5.5" Remmie Sheriff.
    I quit using the BB after a couple of cylinders, due to mess. Never had problems with ball creep.
    I was thinking about deburring my chamber mouths. I need to find my snap gauges and mic the chambers and barrels (I have 2 58 Rems, a 5.5" and an 8").
    I'd like to get the chambers reamed. Can't decide if I want to do it myself or find someone to send it to.

    Haven't had any ball creep. Those 35 grain loads scare the balls into submission. ;)
     
  21. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    My Uberti '58 has beveled chamber mouth. It doesn't shave a nice ring like my straight chambered Pietta's.
    I recently cast some .454 balls out of what I thought was soft lead. As it turned out....the balls were pretty hard. I thought I was going to break my loading rod trying to load the Uberti, but they went into the Pietta's OK. I feel like thois was because of the chamfered cyl mouth on the Uberti (trying to swage the hard lead).

    I admit that I am no expert, but for my $.02.....I wouldn't bevel the chamber mouths.
     
  22. Hellgate

    Hellgate Member

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    kbbailey,
    If you are not getting ball creep then there's no ned to chamfer the chamber mouths. Also, using soft lead would have been no problem with the beveled Uberti. I have shot .457 balls in my beveled chambers and no problems as they were soft lead.
     
  23. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    kwhi43,

    Fact? You have test data to proffer?

    You realize of course this flies in the face of 175 years of experience don't you? Mykeal is wrong about what Samuel Colt did, I have 3 original Colt's and none of them are chamfered. I will post the pics if you like, I've had this discussion before.

    Hellgate and I usually agree on matters concerning cap guns, but on this one I have to disagree. Black Toe Knives is correct, the best fit will always be a cut fit. That is unless there is a burr like ROAshooter first talked about.

    My experience is not just from data about revolvers, I had to deal with a problem much like this with a high speed production tool dispensing lead balls and I wished I could have shaved a ring, it would have solved our positioning problems.

    ROAshooter started this discussion about chamfering by telling us how he fixed an existing problem with a mouth, not adding chamfers for any other reason.

    Swaging balls contrary to what would seem "intuitively obvious" does not necessarily give you an "interference fit." This is what we found with the equipment, there is actually a bit of spring back. In addition if there is any lubricant or chamber residue it creates a film between the chamber wall and the ball when swaging it. This is why lubricant is used during swaging, it creates a film. If you cut the ball the interface is clean and the oil film or debris is pushed in front of the peripheral contact patch as the ball is pushed in.

    But a burr or rolled edge into the diameter of the chamber will cause you a problem. If there is one then it needs to be removed and avoid adding a chamfer if possible. A very small 45° or steeper chamfer that remains smaller or about at the ball diameter will still work most of the time. Steeper, not shallower, you don't want a gentle lead in. I have a question for those of you that "swage," if it doesn't shave lead how do you know if it has fully engaged the walls?

    I suspect tapered chambers is your problem. This happens as the reamer gets worn. On cartridge guns it makes the throat in front of the bullet get tighter because the reamer is introduced from the rear, on a C&B cylinder it makes it smaller the deeper you go in from the cylinder face because the reamer is obviously introduced into a blind hole from the front. Get my drift? It fits "tightly" where it is but even a thousandths of forward movement makes it looser, you tell me where it will go.

    The good news it can be reamed again. It might not even be larger at the mouth when you are finished, but you need to ream it to at least the seating depth with a constant straight sided wall . Find someone with a pin gage set to determine what the current diameter is for each chamber and how deep the pins will go. Then you can ream all of your chambers dead on to size, choose the largest diameter mouth, or .0005" (1/2 thousandths) larger.

    Check these people out, they have tools at a good price and free shipping if it's ground. I just pulled up a Ø.451 reamer to show you.

    http://www.atlascuttingtools.com/products/0.451-DIAMETER-%252d-A52262.html


    Regards,
    Mako
     
  24. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Member

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    I have a question for those of you that "swage," if it doesn't shave lead how do you know if it has fully engaged the walls?

    Because the balls I use measure .360 dia. and the walls in the chambers measure .357
    The .003 has to go somewhere.
     
  25. Hellgate

    Hellgate Member

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    Mako,
    I don't think we disagree at all. Note my last post: "If you are not getting ball creep then there's no ned [sic] to chamfer the chamber mouths." I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp due to having "fixed" many an item only to end up like Brer Rabbit and the tar baby. The only cylinders I've done any chamfering on were having ball creep issues and I just barely took the edge off to resolve the situation.
     
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