Recoil problem please help!

[twofifty]

ToughGun, I am not you so it doesn't matter what I shoot.

I started at the bottom, hunting groundsquirrels and rabbits with a cheapy .22LR, with irons.

When I outshot that, I bought a .22LR bolt-action Anschutz sporter with a target turret scope. It is a full-sized rifle that fits me like a glove and has a great stock, action and trigger.

I took the advice of folk way more experienced than me (hunters and winning competitors) and put over 5000 purposeful off-hand rounds though the .22. For two years, all year round, I practiced several times most weeks and shot metallic silhouette matches.

My highpower shooting has improved greatly as a result. Whenever my HP shooting deteriorates, I reach for my .22LR and find the cure groove:
more follow-through.

I can only pass on the advice I was given.

 

[rocky branch]

Many a youngster fired his first round through an '03 Springfield, Mi Garand, M14, whatever.

The '03 has much more recoil, but the idea is in training for the whole experience.

The range guys used to say the best trainees were ones who never shot anything.

There was some truth to that.

Yoiu are overcomplicating this ad nauseum.

Get the basics down-stance, breath, trigger pull and get on with it.
You'll be surprised how easy and effortless it becomes.
Bad habits can be unlearned.

 

[twofifty]

kick & recoil

ToughGun you keep coming back to kick and recoil.
Everyone who has posted here understands what you're fighting.

About kick and recoil:
Shotgun kick and rifle kick are not quite the same. Their powder charges burn at a different rate, which speeds or slows the recoil impulse. The mass and velocities of the ejecta (bullet or pellets) varies [action = reaction].

The firearms don't weigh the same..heavier ones generally seem to kick less. Their stocks are shaped differently..a stock that fits you will transfer less felt recoil to your body - a poorly fitting stock will beat you up. Some rifles have better recoil pads.

One thing is universal though: The heavier and faster the bullet, the more recoil. A magnum cartridge will produce less felt recoil in a heavy rifle, and much more felt recoil in a lightweight one.

Here's how I understand it and how it feels to me - others may disagree:

- Smaller calibers (.224"; .243"; .257"; .264") generally produce good speed and less recoil, except for the super-fast magnum versions.
Good flat-shooting deer and varmint calibers like the 243Win and 250 Savage fall in this category and would suit your needs.

- Next up, .277" and 7mm (.284") generally produce noticeably more recoil, with the magnum versions being worse. The 7mm-08 is a good deer choice for you in this league.

- Most 30 calibers (.308") produce even more recoil, but as you have experienced the slower ones like the 30-30 are easy shooters. The .30-06 that pounded you 4 years ago, a very popular and able cartridge, is nonetheless generally considered to be at the limits for full-sized experienced shooters. The .308Win cartridge recoils almost as hard as the .30-06. You will also notice that lots of very heavy magnum and short magnum cartridges are hyped in 30 caliber.

- As a general rule, 32 caliber & up cartridges are heavy recoiling specialty items that fire heavy bullets (+200 grains).
For example the .338WinMag, the .35 Whelen, the .375H&H. But there are some comparatively mild shooting 'big-bore' cartridges in the bunch: the .32Special; the 35 Remington. These are oddballs and not always easily found.

Conclusion:
You have shown that recoil is your enemy, that flinching is an issue.
Why not pick the lightest effective caliber that will more than suit your stated purposes?

- Many on this thread agree the .243 Winchester is a very able hard-hitting cartridge for deer and similar-sized game.
- With lighter bullets, the 243 is a death-ray on varmints, even 400 yard coyotes.
- It is great fun at the range and puts you at an advantage against guys shooting heavy recoiling calibers.
- You could even easily reload your very own custom 243 cartridges and save a few $.

Suggest you take a close look at the Savage Axis rifle/scope package in .243Win and see if the stock fits you.

 

[Gromky]

I agree with above, a ton of dry firing is good. A ton of live fire may be better. Use a scope with good eye relief, it will scare you a hell of a lot less if the scope is 4" away.

Not every rifle recoils the same. A heavy .300 Win Mag may abuse your shoulder as much as a lightweight, straight stocked .30-30.

As people said, it's all about anticipation. I've mentioned this before, but for me it was muzzle flash and noise that scared me more than recoil. I was afraid of the flash, and had to work through it. There's no easy way to do it, other than doing the same thing over and over. Flinching is incredibly common.

 

[txhoghunter]

My thought: You can handle the .223 and .243 without problems.

For the 7mm and .30-06, throw a limbsaver on and you will be perfectly happy

 

[TX1911fan]

Go .308 for your big game cartridge. It's great and very low recoil. Accurate and plenty of bullet sizes for whatever you are hunting.

.223 is a great cartridge as well. Get both.

 

[ShootersWarehouse]

223 rem. has very little recoil, especially if you are shooting AR style weapon. 243 also has very manageable recoil. Anything from 308 and down is pretty easy. With the large and magnum calibers you can always have a gunsmith put on a muzzle brake. I had a 7mm mag with a KDF muzzle brake and it reduced the recoil down to about the same recoil as my 243. The disadvantage to a muzzle brake is it gets load. Your friends at the range will not like you. But it really helps with recoil and muzzle jump. Vais also make a really nice brake. Also, put on a limb saver recoil pad. They really work.
www.shooterswarehouse.com

 

[oneounceload]

About kick and recoil:
Shotgun kick and rifle kick are not quite the same. Their powder charges burn at a different rate, which speeds or slows the recoil impulse. The mass and velocities of the ejecta (bullet or pellets) varies [action = reaction].

The firearms don't weigh the same..heavier ones generally seem to kick less. Their stocks are shaped differently..a stock that fits you will transfer less felt recoil to your body - a poorly fitting stock will beat you up. Some rifles have better recoil pads.

heavier guns in the same cartridge WILL have less ACTUAL recoil. Stock fit will determine if they have less FELT, or PERCEIVED, recoil

The lightest load in the heaviest gun will have the least recoil.

You can calculate your shotgun recoil here:

http://10xshooters.com/calculators/Shotgun_Recoil_Calculator.htm

and your rifle recoil here:

http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/Rifle_Recoil_Calculator.htm

Determine which is the lightest and go accordingly

 

[kayak-man]

Ok, I was kind of the same way. I went from shooting a .22 rifle to 12 guage. It wasn't too bad, but it left me pretty sore. I also started shooting handguns on whatever my dad owned at the time, which meant easily concealed guns. I didn't have too much issue with a Bursa 380, but the airweight J-Frame, that was a bit too much gun for me.

What I found helpfull was push ups. Lots of pushups. Your millage may vary, but I found the more muscle I built up, the less percieved recoil there was. I'm not suggesting you're weak, or out of shape, just saying that paying a little more attention to that aspect of your work out might be helpful. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to go to Walmart and pick up a pair of grip strengtheners for aobut $5, jsut incase you ever start shooting handguns, and hey, it can't hurt, right?

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Gromky]

What I found helpfull was push ups. Lots of pushups. Your millage may vary, but I found the more muscle I built up, the less percieved recoil there was. I'm not suggesting you're weak, or out of shape, just saying that paying a little more attention to that aspect of your work out might be helpful.

Pushups will build muscle right in front of your scapula. So yes, pushups or other upper body exercises may really helpwith recoil. I wouldn't say working out will directly fix recoil, but you've mentioned one way to make it less painful.

 

[Fleetman]

People that get their yucks by handing an inexperienced shooter a hard-kicker should be horsewhipped. There's not much that will turn a novice off quicker than to be "bullied" by a firearm.

A while back there was a tv show on, can't remember the name of it but I think it was some kind of Alaska series, and a novice shooter was scoped by a .338 Mag. The rifle was handed to him by their "guide" and you could tell trouble was brewing even before the shot simply by the way he had it shouldered.

 

[northark147]

I got my first scope eye when I was in 2nd grade from a 30-06. For the longest time I stayed away from scopes, always kinda enjoyed a good kick, guess I'm sadistic that way. I cant say for sure if it was that i never stopped shooting and put many rounds down range with irons, or if I finally just went back to scopes out of sheer determination to be able to see well enough to shoot groups at long ranges, but I have no problems with scopes now. But I ca pretty much say with enough shootin and determination your problem will go away. I dont flinch anymore until after my shoulder starts hurting bad. lol

 

[BigN]

I've never personally had scope eye because I prefer the smaller, hotter centerfires with less recoil but a buddy of mine did while coyote shooting one day. He thought the coyotes got him because his eye was full of blood and it was streaming down his face. I told him he deserved it for shooting coyotes with a 300 win mag

 

[Bill_Rights]

muscle tension/isometrics AND posture

I think jiminhobesound is on the right track:

Consider how you grip a gun. I grew up with side by side shotguns, lever and bolt action rifles. I was taught to grip the forend of the guns and later developed my own method of pushing with the forend gun and to pull in the gun at the butt end of the gun. I believe this technique served me well in firing some pretty potent guns.

I was wondering if you all think (Jim &) I am on the right track based upon this experience:

I recently gave myself a minor case of "scope eye" with a commonplace factory .308 Win round out of a 5.5 lb bolt rifle with a scope with 3-3/4" eye relief. I was using a pair of short shooting sticks and a very relaxed grip and shouldering of the butt. Jim's push-pull grip would have taken up the "slack" of the butt in my shoulder pocket so that there would be less rearward travel. In fact, that is what I did on subsequent shots, and it worked. Secondly, my scope cut was only on the top of my eyebrow, meaning that my head posture was too far face-down. The shooting sticks were low, and I couldn't/didn't get my shoulders and neck low enough so that my face would be erect. In other words, I was sighting with my eyeball rolled way up in my head, because my forehead was tilted forward and down. That's bad shooting posture. I was thinking of getting a stock with more drop to force a more heads-up posture. Maybe a better idea, for starters, is a training aid consisting of a couple of strips of black electrician's tape across the lens of my shooting glasses, so that I can only see out of the glasses when my eyeball is rotated straight ahead out of my skull. This would force me to be conscious of finding a posture in which my head was erect, else I couldn't sight through the glasses.

Any comments?

 

[MtnSpur]

Push/Pull

Consider how you grip a gun. I grew up with side by side shotguns, lever and bolt action rifles. I was taught to grip the forend of the guns and later developed my own method of pushing with the forend gun and to pull in the gun at the butt end of the gun. I believe this technique served me well in firing some pretty potent guns.

Recoil goes with firearms like peanut butter goes with jelly. That said; took a handgun course some years ago (and I'd already been shooting for quite awhile) and the instructor had a 9mm with a laser grip. He pointed the weapon at a point on the wall and assumed a normal pistol hand wrap with no pressure exerted with either hand and that laser was dancing all over the place. Next he demonstrated the same grip BUT pushing with his strongside hand while pulling with his weak side: The laser stopped dead on target and wobble was minimal. At the range I practiced this technique until I found a comfortable compromise and lo and behold not only were my groupings respectable but my managed recoil was improved. I've since adopted this technique in long gun shooting and found recoil much reduced while still placing a respectable group. Shoot Win 94 30-30, Remingtom 700 Classic in 25-06 and a wide variety of 12ga shutguns without problematic recoil.
Every shooter has their own technique and what works for them might not work for you but certainly a range instructor worth his salt can give you pointers to help that flinch factor subside and eventually disappear. As stated in a previous comment a limbsaver isn't a bad thing to look into either.

 

[Br]

MtnSpur, interesting idea. I'm going to try that as soon as I can. Was thinking of sneaking off to the range for a long 'lunch' anyway.

 

[Lord Palmerston]

How much recoil can you expect from a 45/70 Govt.?

 

[Bill_Rights]

That was a trick question, right?

Lord Palmerston,

In view of oneonceload's posting above in this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7141579&postcount=33), how can you ask:

How much recoil can you expect from a 45/70 Govt.?

oneonceload gives a link to a calculator page that will give you the recoil: http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/Rifle_Recoil_Calculator.htm. You need to know the loading data of the 45/70 cartridge and the weight of the rifle, but just plug that in and go!

True, to get a feel for what those recoil numbers mean, you need to compare with other rifle's recoil numbers. Or maybe you have a frame of reference for the recoil numbers already? I have seen written/tabular data for common loadings and rifles elsewhere, but don't have it handy. One of the formulas used is by Lyman, so I am sure that company has background reference data somewhere.