Recoil Shoulder Pain

[Schwing]

Schwing - when you shoot the heaviest gun you can handle with the lightest loads that work in your gun, the recoil is minimal. The mass of the gun is the key, coupled then with the velocity and mass of the payload



I shoot several cases per week. I shoot at least three times per week. With torn cartilage in my shooting shoulder, I am NOT about to that discomfort. I have ZERO pain, ZERO bruises, and am able to shoot 300 or more in one day without pain, bruising, or discomfort (fatigue - yes, the rest - no)

Using this recoil calculator:http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html

MY 3/4 oz 1210 fps loads in MY gun have 10.25 foot/pounds; changing the load only to 1-1/8 @ 1300 gives you 22.6 - remember this does not increase in a linear fashion.

Light loads do the job, do not cause pain or bruising, and will prevent you from making your doctor's Mercedes payment...

On light loads I have to agree but Praxidike is obviously not reloading light loads. You stated earlier that even the heaviest loads can be fired with no bruising at all. This is simply not true, especially with a stock pump action 12 gauge and more than just a few rounds. I think a lot of times new shooters get frustrated with things like recoil because they are told over and over again that they must be doing something wrong if they have any discomfort when, in fact, even after every correct form is being practiced, they are still dealing with basic physics. Most new shooters are not going to be reloading their own loads and they are not going to be starting out with limb savers or recoil stocks. If proper placement was the cure-all, these accessories would not exist and be so popular.

Basically, all I am saying to Praxidike is that you should learn proper placement and form first. It will help tremendously, but it is OK to accept the fact that you are going to experience recoil on whatever part of your body that is touching the stock. Over time, you will find methods to minimize it and you will get a higher tolerance for it until you will also wonder what people are talking about when they complain about recoil.

 

[jaguarxk120]

In the posts by praxidike I have not found any reference as to what shells he is using.

I think it would help the members of the forum if the brand and loading were posted.

Shooting heavy hunting loads is not much fun, but as oneounceload has pointed out lighter loadings make for more comfortable shooting.

 

[AKElroy]

I respectfully disagree as do the laws of physics. Its Newton's second law: every action has an equal or opposite reaction f=ma how much force the bullet has leaving the chamber is how much force you will feel "kicking" in the opposite direction onto your body (subtracting whatever other factors such as action type and porting) regardless of where you hold it.

This statement discounts the energy needed to overcome the inertia of the firearm, and the surface area absorbing the reaction. Both can be addressed by the weight of the gun, pads, length and angle of pull, weight balance, spreading the energy released over a longer period of time (auto's), reciprocating mass (auto's, mercury tubes, etc..., porting, back-boring, lighter loads), and technique. Oneounceload has the experience to validate this, I'll take that.

 

[Schwing]

This statement discounts the energy needed to overcome the inertia of the firearm, and the surface area absorbing the reaction. Both can be addressed by the weight of the gun, pads, length and angle of pull, weight balance, spreading the energy released over a longer period of time (auto's), reciprocating mass (auto's, mercury tubes, etc..., porting, back-boring, lighter loads), and technique. Oneounceload has the experience to validate this, I'll take that.

That was the purpose of my last post... To point out that, while he most certainly has the experience, correct fire-arm, correct loads, pads, and know-how, a new shooter will not. As has been said, if the only factor involved in bruising were position, there would be no recoil stocks, pads or ported guns on the market as there would be no need for them. A new shooter who un-boxes his Mossberg 500 for the first time is not going to have this experience and should not be discouraged by experienced shooter's comments about them doing something wrong if they are feeling the slightest bit of discomfort.

 

[AKElroy]

I do not disagree with the point you made in your last post, I was referring to post #20 regarding physics. The equal and opposite reaction newton describes applies to the breech face, not the shoulder. A tremendous amount of energy gets used, diverted, converted, extended and repurposed between those two points, making the analogy flawed.

 

[Schwing]

I think we are on the same page more than not here. Sorry for being argumentative, I tend to do that sometimes even unintentionally. My basic argument was that new shooters should expect some recoil. Learning to minimize it through proper placement, form and accessorizing is realistic. IMHO expecting to never feel any type if discomfort from recoil is not.

Once again, sorry about being argumentative. I have been viewing the forum for a lot of years before joining and I have the utmost respect for you all. Thanks.

 

[AKElroy]

We have the argumentative thing in common. Everybody pretty much hates to see me weigh in here

 

[oneounceload]

Don't worry about it - I like a good "argumentative discussion" anyway...., but we have to watch the mods when we get going

Oneounceload has the experience to validate this, I'll take that.

Thanks for the compliment, but I am FAR from an expert - that said I DO shoot with several and have learned a lot - one is in the NSCA Hall of Fame and at 86 has been shooting for 80 years - I hope to just live that long, let alone be shooting and winning! ; another is a famous gun writer who was an Olympic alternate and coach for the Skeet team - I learn something every day when I shoot with these guys
And that is the point - get to your local club, shoot with some of the old timers, many times you'll find yourself shooting next to someone who has "been there done that"
I ran into that when I lived in the Reno area. Trap shooters will recognize the name Dan Orlich - met him, talked to him a lot about targets in general and watched him shoot lights out against a LOT of talented shooters
Dan shoots a Ljutic - the epitome of trap guns - his single barrel and double guns are serial number 1

Pay attention to all the info you hear - you might learn something.

Back to recoil - there are two to consider - actual and perceived. Perceived is also known as "kick". Actual, as Schwing pointed out, is a pure calculation based on several factors. Perceived can be influenced by the action type, recoil pads, fit- LOP, drop at hell, drop at comb, comb thickness, shape of the grip, length to the trigger, forearm shape and thickness, etc.

Too many, unfortunately, thick just slapping on a Limbsaver is the correct thing to do, when it barely addresses one aspect of above

 

[Warners]

I got one of the PAST pads mentioned earlier. Shoot all day, rifles and shotguns, no bruising. Just strap it on before I start and forget about it. Works for me. Proper fit, placement, etc are super important of course, but these things really help, and you only have to buy ONE for all of your guns.

Warner

http://www.amazon.com/Past-300010-Mag-Shield/dp/B004PS3UIW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1374248166&sr=8-3&keywords=past+recoil+shield

 

[lloveless]

Something else to consider is that different people's shoulders are shaped differently (muscle development/fat), age (taking aspirin or other NSAIDS), or taking blood thinners, which will cause bruising easier. Improper placement of an lever action .44 mag with a metal piece bruises my shoulder, but my Win 1200 doesn't even after an all day shooting session. Putting an pad on the back of the buttstock changes the length of pull. You may need to trim some of the stock off.
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