Record Texas Buck

[auschip]

THis should answer your question. For anyone with experience farming you will know the difference immediately. The concentration of food in a small area is what causes deer to come to that area to feed. In a field, you typically don't get those concentrations, grain is spread out over a large area. A small patch of clover (biologic as you stated) is not going to be as appealing as a small patch of corn. It simply doesn't have the nutritional value as the same amount of corn. Put a little hay and a little corn in from of some cattle and see what gets eaten first.

So let me make sure I understand, a field of corn contains very little food, but a feeder that puts out 1 lb of corn is concentrated.

A 6 foot circle of corn is concentrated, but a 1/2 acre food plot of peas, wheat, and oats specifically planted to attract deer isn't attractive enough to bring a deer in.

We used to have a place roughly an hour North of these guys (La Salle County), and the brush was next to impenetrable for a human. Heck, even the deer had mesquite thorns in them when skinned out. Spot and stalk simply doesn't exist in alot of these places, and I never heard of pass shooting deer.

 

[wombat13]

I don't care if hunters use feeders or not. They are illegal in NY, but if they were legal I'd probably use one to be honest. I hunt primarily for the meat. I'd like to get one big set of horns mounted in my life, but otherwise I actually prefer doe - they taste much better.

That said, anyone who claims they don't understand the difference between hunting over a feeder and hunting a 120 acre bean field is just being obtuse. When you hunt over a feeder you know exactly where the deer is going to end up. You can choose the perfect location for a stand/blind and know that you are going to have an easy shot. If it didn't greatly increase your odds of harvesting a deer, no one would use feeders.

When you hunt a large field the deer could come from multiple directions and head to any part of the field. You have to look for deer sign to identify a good location for your stand/blind and then you have to scan a much larger area.

Hunting over a big field of corn and hunting over a feeder are similar, but there is most definitely a difference in degree.

 

[Art Eatman]

auschip, think "density". Sure, a field has lots of corn, or corn left from harvest, but it's spread out. No different from hunting a grain field for doves after the harvest.

But with any sort of feeder, it's all right there on the table in one spot, not all spread out like a spaced-out smorgasbord.

As to deer size in Texas: If you look at the map, consider the area enclosed by a line from San Antonio to Corpus as an east boundary, and by US 90 on the north, going west to Del Rio. Within that--generally--is what's called the "Brush Country". The "brasada" of J. Frank Dobie's books. That has always been big-buck country.

In the hill country of Llano, Mason and Brady counties, plus similar geograpy in the general area, many of the once-large ranches have been broken up by sale or inheritance. Plus, multitudes of small-tract "ranchettes". Overall, fewer hunters kill the deer in enough numbers to keep the herd truly within the carrying capacity of the land. That transition of land use during the 1960s and onward led to a lessening of the average size of the deer. Just way too many deer for the habitat. You wind up with "greyhounds with horns".

You have the same amount of land as before, but fewer hunters--and no predators in any quantity. Add in the eradication of the screw-worm fly and it's a recipe for a population explosion--and "pigmy-ization" of the deer herd.

The hill country area can have horrendus winter die-offs after a drouth. The only year for which I have any sort of hard number is for the winter of 1963/64; 1963 was a severe drouth year. In the three counties listed above, the hunter kill was estimated by Parks & Wildlife at around 15,000. The winter kill was estimated at around 17,000.

Overall, however, there are strong efforts being made to reduce total numbers and get the average size back to being consistent with the carrying capacity of the land. Some are doing the genetic thing and all the scientific stuff; others are just controlling the total numbers and controlling what size bucks are taken by hunters.

This record buck seems to be from the latter method of management.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

So let me make sure I understand, a field of corn contains very little food, but a feeder that puts out 1 lb of corn is concentrated.

Yes, since most deer hunting takes place after harvest a field of corn will have much less grain per square foot that a baited area will. Thats if you have your combine set up correctly and you are not leaving a lot of it in the field.

 

[auschip]

Yes, I was intentionally being obtuse. I grow tired of the folks who complain about hunting over a feeder, while happily setting up a blind next to farmer John's corn field (or a cultivated food plot specifically for deer). Folks have been hunting over bait since the beginning of time. Oak trees with acorns, water holes, persimmon, heck even good browse can be considered bait in lean seasons. Where do we draw the line?

 

[HGUNHNTR]

I beleive the line is at mechanical feeders that develop feeding patterns in deer. Again, just my opinion.

Setting up next to a large field where grain is sparsely spread out over a very large area is different than hunting over a feeder with a timer that dispenses grain in one area. Why do folks use feeders if you could be just as effective next to a field, or stand of oak trees?
Another downside to animals all eating in one area is a more rapid spread of disease, ie. CWD.

 

[jmorris]

That’s a nice deer and years ago folks may not have cared about the parts of a deer you don’t eat; however, pulling big antlers off land brings in a lot of money for ranchers. If it was just about food everyone would just go to the grocery store.

Kind of funny reading some of these post and thinking about how we have to bury the corn we bait hogs with so the deer don’t set of the motion activated radios that alert us that hogs are present.

 

[auschip]

Why do folks use feeders if you could be just as effective next to a field, or stand of oak trees?
Another downside to animals all eating in one area is a more rapid spread of disease, ie. CWD.

Not all places have cultivated fields or stands of Oaks. The locations we are talking about are rough land. CWD hasn't been found in TX (To my knowledge), wouldn't it be more prevalent, since we allow feeders?

 

[jmorris]

Where do we draw the line?

I would say where ever you want to as land/livestock owner. What is the difference? It is just a matter of, what do you want to utilize your resources for?

 

[desidog]

Well, you guys in TX really do it big, i guess. Feeders and purpose-planted fields. To me that's wasting potential income from a cash crop. But income from a trophy-hunter is good money too i suppose. Here the land-value is much higher per acre, so that's not an option.

In CT, deer are considered a nuisance. Much like your hogs i suppose. "Overpopulation" has a different meaning too. Here more car accidents are caused by deer than anything else; and in especially rough winters we get nose-prints on our house windows where they've been licking the condensation.

I don't need to bait deer, because they wander through the property all the time; and my goal is not to pay to seed a field for them, or pull my back carrying buckets of corn to a feeder; instead my goal is to deter them from our property and rose bushes, and thinning the herd so the survivors have more to eat, so we don't have walking skeletons on our field and driveway in late winter, and i get to eat something in the process. Also, not having to drive over-cautiously at night would be nice because the deer are standing in the middle of a winding road, which can add a lot of time to a commute, since they don't move out of the way.

I don't freeze my butt off in a tree. I walk the property, and more often than not i see a couple. I think that's "natural," unlike the Texas approach. Perhaps they wouldn't be overpopulated if you guys stopped feeding them...that would be natural.

Don't get me wrong, if you're into shooting at deer that have been chummed in to a feeder, i don't have issue with it. I just don't consider it to be fair-chase. Much like shooting in a high-fence; that's like fish in a barrel. To be extreme about it, you might as well shoot up the grocer's meat isle and save yourself some time field-dressing, and mount the styrofoam and shrink-wrap on the wall. What makes a trophy is perception, culture and trend.

 

[shaggy430]

When are we as hunters going to get past judging other hunters for using legal means to harvest animals? That is the last thing we need. If it's legal where you live do it. If it's not, then don't.

This thread started about a nice deer. Get off your soapbox and get behind your fellow hunters.

 

[Art Eatman]

desidog, I realize that you live a long way from Texas, but you're generalizing from very little knowledge.

For one thing, most deer feeding is only done as an attractant during hunting season. And, not all that much, in total "pounds per deer". It has no effect on size or numbers.

The game ranches in Texas with year-around feeding programs are maybe 1% to 2% of either numbers of ranches or of acreage.

Some hunters sit and watch at feeders. Others will still-hunt in the general area of a feeder. Still others will do walking-hunts, covering a fair number of miles in a day.

And again, for the umpteenth time: In general, the high-fenced pastures are commonly larger than a mere 1,000 to 2,000 acres. They're commonly in the brush country where it would take one helluva man to hunt more than a hundred acres in a day. Many are readily likened to a jungle of mesquite brush, prickly pear and catclaw. (IOW, don't wear wool; you'll wind up nekkid.)

Given the economics of ranching, the cash inflow from deer hunters is often the difference between making your payments or being "land poor".

Land values? A year or so back I saw an ad for one ranch of about 17,000 acres at $37 an acre. There are others in the few-thousand-acre size at $4,000 per acre and some even higher. Depends on where you are.

 

[JoeMal]

I sure love a nice rack

Damn good lookin deer

 

[desidog]

Thanks for that clarification Art, I don't know much about it, and my view is probably stilted by watching hunting shows on TV. from other posts, i presumed feeding to be more wide-spread and continuous.

I guess i could sell and retire at 35 to Texas - land here can be over a million per acre (with house). If i got folks to come hunt here (for admittedly much smaller racks) the price-point as far as land would be interesting. There are not many pay-to-hunt operations here, because no-one could afford the land to do it, let alone find a contiguous parcel.

What about getting in a bulldozer and blasting a bunch of lanes through all that brush to make it more walker-friendly? I know i probably can't properly comprehend the sizes involved, but if a landowner spent a couple days mowing the scrub, in big loops and crossing intersections, i imagine that would be enough distances for a walking guy to spot-stalk for a couple days before retracing his steps. To me, that would be far more interesting hunting that sitting in a stand.

 

[wombat13]

Don't get me wrong, if you're into shooting at deer that have been chummed in to a feeder, i don't have issue with it. I just don't consider it to be fair-chase. Much like shooting in a high-fence; that's like fish in a barrel. To be extreme about it, you might as well shoot up the grocer's meat isle and save yourself some time field-dressing, and mount the styrofoam and shrink-wrap on the wall. What makes a trophy is perception, culture and trend.

I much prefer venison to beef. IMHO, beef is bland, except for the expensive, dry-aged beef (which runs $25 to $36 per lb. in grocery stores in WNY). Farm-raised venison in the "game" case at our grocery store runs $28 per lb. for chops.

For me, the average value of the venison I harvest is probably about $10 per lb. I put 120 lbs of venison in the freezer last year. To do that, I invested about 50 hours of my time, a couple hundred bucks in processing, and maybe a hundred bucks in equipment (if I amortize my equipment purchases over a period of years). That means I "earned" nearly $20 per hour hunting last year and funded my gun/shooting hobby. That's not bad given that I enjoy being outdoors, shooting, and spending time with my buddies.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

What about getting in a bulldozer and blasting a bunch of lanes through all that brush to make it more walker-friendly? I know i probably can't properly comprehend the sizes involved, but if a landowner spent a couple days mowing the scrub, in big loops and crossing intersections, i imagine that would be enough distances for a walking guy to spot-stalk for a couple days before retracing his steps. To me, that would be far more interesting hunting that sitting in a stand.

That is done all the time Desi, They are called scendaros (not sure on that spelling so I spelled it phonetically) And if it were not for them being cut, there are many places in Texas that would be IMPOSSIBLE to hunt. To give you an easy picture, In MOST of South Texas, EVERYTHING either cuts, pokes,scratches, bites, stings, or tries to eat you alive. Most areas are impassible by humans. The deer have acclimated to this harsh habitat and thrive in it. But deer have a major flaw in that they are RETARDED when it comes to population. Nature used to have a population control in place with predation but since man, in all of his ignorance, decided to wipe out the majority of predators, deer populations now exceed what the habitat can maintain in many areas. Therein lies the reason for feeding with food plots and feeders. It serves 2 purposes, health of the deer as well as quality racks for hunters, increasing dollars to reinvest back into feeding the deer! Circle of life (and economy).

And like Art (for the umpteenth time), Your AVERAGE high fence facility in Texas exceeds 2000 acres. And is USUALLY some very thick stuff. While I do NOT agree with these little 2 and 300 acre facilities for the purposes of "hunting", let me clue you in on a little something, MOST of the Texas facilities that I have visited are well over 2000 acres and they are BY FAR not easy to hunt. Hell I had a 200 acre wooded area that I had several deer on and hunted one specific deer for 3 years before I finally got to connect on him. If you think hunting on 2000+ acres would be easy just because it is high fenced, PLEASE think again. Most hunters have never hunted areas that large and have no clue but they see "High Fence" and they quickly go to "Easy" in their minds. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[kyle1974]

I would venture to say that the vast majority of the deer on my lease never see the fence...

12,000 acres high fenced... almost 19 square miles.

but I guess it's like shooting fish in a barrel, because there is an 8 foot fence. the deer have ABSOLUTEY no where to go!!! (other than the remaining 18.75 square miles.)

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Not to mention that a deers NORMAL habitat is equal to or less than 1 square mile and that is with a rutting buck out cruising for doe! And yes there are exceptions to that rule as with any rule, but the NORM is around 1 sq. mile.

 

[kyle1974]

I'm not sure if this will show up. you think it's wide open in south texas? look at the cactus thorns all over this guy. This is very common to see, although for some reason it looks like this dude rolled around in the cactus

We do regular helicopter surveys every year, which is when we see the bigger deer.

the old, big bucks usually do not come to the feeders. this deer is a 3.5 year old... still a baby.

 

[FLAvalanche]

When are we as hunters going to get past judging other hunters for using legal means to harvest animals?

Never.

The grizzly bear stands at the top of the falls and lets the salmon leap into his mouth and we don't criticize the grizzly. But set up a deer feeder...

I've said it too many times here so I'm going to try it once more for the hard of skull:

Until you drop naked from a tree onto the back of your prey you have absolutely no business commenting on how I hunt.

Everything you do beyond dropping naked from a tree is using something to your advantage or using a weakness of the animal against itself.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

this deer is a 3.5 year old... still a baby.

That "Baby" would be some mighty fine eating too! Past 3.5 and they are pretty much Burger and Sausage meat as far as bucks go. Dem Der Horns on that "baby" would make an awful purdy hat rack too!

 

[desidog]

FLAavalanche: I would drop naked, or more probably in cargo shorts, from a tree...but that is illegal here. Probably there too.

If you don't want to discuss your hunting and have trouble with criticism, Don't post about it.

From this thread I've deduced that there are large regional differences from guys armed similarly and going after the same quarry. This means we don't all think alike. Don't take it personally that other people have different hunting ethics than you do, and voice their opinions freely. That's why 1A comes before 2A, and what makes discussions interesting.

 

[kyle1974]

That "Baby" would be some mighty fine eating too! Past 3.5 and they are pretty much Burger and Sausage meat as far as bucks go. Dem Der Horns on that "baby" would make an awful purdy hat rack too!

but if you shoot them at 3.5, they will never look like the one below that one.

 

[Leaky Waders]

"To make it truly fair for the animal, take your accordian & bathe in High Karate before your hike into the wild." Has me literally LOL!

That is an awesome buckI! I'm no expert but I think that the family coinicidence isn't just coincidence...it's more likely wise game management and good hunting skills.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

but if you shoot them at 3.5, they will never look like the one below that one.

Well unless I am managing a property and trying to get my herd buck to doe ratio I could really care less about the rack size personally. My Trophy days have come and gone. I'd just rather have the meat from a good younger buck or fat doe.