Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by johnnylaw53, Apr 14, 2022.
I'll accept the argument that its nice to have if the batteries or sight has gone dead, but with quality red dots, I find having backup irons to really only be useful when adjusting optics like the SIG Romeo Zero which lack "clicks".
Started my CCW journey with CT lasers on Shields. Green and red. No explicit action needed on those. They are always live, you just have to grip the gun for the beam to activate. So pretty handy. The nice thing about them is you don't have to be looking down the slide to place shots accurately. The not so good about them things are mentioned above, plus in any kind of smoky room, they draw a line right to you.
You are fortunate not to have had your optic fail. But just as important BUIS allow one to find the dot quicker. A new circle dot development from holosun may make the sight faster to use without co-witness BUIS.
Im a fan of that circle dot. With my astigmatism simple dots become awkward slashes, but the circle or circle dot are clear
I have some cheap tube type red dots with circle-dot patterns on some .22lr plinkers and they really rock when shooting steel plate racks for speed -- often making me feel like Jerry Miculek hitting the fourth plate when the first one hasn't quite finished falling
I've had plenty of red dot failures (generally dead batteries) which is why my carry guns have all had Trijicon "dual illumination" tritium/fiber optic sights on them, until now with my Hellcat and the SIG Romeo Zero which does give me BUIS with the Hellcat factory sights.
I am definitely going to be looking into the SIG Romeo Zero Pro which seems to offer a circle-dot variation if I've red the promo materials correctly.
Certainly a valid criticism if that makes a difference for you, beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that. I happen to disagree.
I'm not sure to what degree you are referring. It does make overhand wracking of the slide a little different, but not impossible and one gets used to it and the dot actually gives you a much easier ledge for one handed manipulations if one would need to do such a thing. I will agree that concealing a dot equipped pistol IWB does present some challenges that make it harder, for me, to conceal. Again not impossible but more difficult. Namely needing the dot to ride above my belt and therefore a higher ride with a more neutral cant than I prefer.
Much like looks, this is a personal thing. There are plenty of professionals in LEO and competitors who depend on them just fine, apparently some in the MIL as well. The systems have become pretty durable if you just take the extra step to replace batteries yearly (Which I do with so many things around the house, what are one or two more) there's really not much more maintenance needed.
I do prefer to have backup iron sights and occasionally practice with them, usually a lower 1/3 or 1/4 sight picture. Transitioning to them isn't difficult with a little practice.
The fundamentals of shooting are exactly the same, shoot both.
This is the one where I think its most prevalent on folks that haven't spent time with a dot to make these comments. Personally (and I don't think I'm alone) I find shooting in that 7-15 yards to be the most advantageous with the dot. Transitioning targets, rapid shooting, especially moving at those intermediate range is the biggest advantage. Faster, easier, and more accurate. Inside 7 yards I practice without any sights most of the time, just instinctive point shooting.
The other big advantage is being able to be more target focused and letting the dot shot up when your firing grip gets right, in all likelyhood and by all accounts most CCW users don't even look at their sights when they need to use their weapon, they are focused on the threat, maybe a flash sight picture at best if they're well practiced. The dot lets you focus on the target and still have your sight picture pop up (a similar argument is made for laser sights as well) which very well might be an advantage if you need to use a dot equipped CCW, it certainly won't hurt.
I know when I first tried a dot at the range, briefly, I had all these biases as well, and I spent so much time trying to chase the dot, I pretty much instantly hated it. It took a weekend of dry fire and two range trips to "get it" when I finally just bought a cheap one to play with but it really has helped me shoot faster and easier at the range and my CCW guns now have dots. My trick was to train my brain not to look for the dot, as is very tempting, but to bring the gun up exactly like I'm looking for the front sight and everything just pops into place, since my hands know what to do to grip the gun properly and bring it on line, just needed the thing between my ears to remember to do it right.
I guess as a personal aside, I am colorblind and if I want to have a nice sharp front sight focus, or even decent flash sight picture I'm pretty picky about what front sights I can have. High contrast yellow or real bright green are the best and just about all I can pick up fast. Red, Orange, anything dim/white, gold/brass bead, all might as well just be fully blacked out for my eyes in anything buy slow fire and bright sunlight. Green dots have been a revelation for my eyes, so of course YMMV
Nothing happened to them. If your eyesight is good enough to use iron sights and that's your preferred sight, good for you! I know I used to be that way. But, like most, my eyesight has gotten worse as I aged. No more 20-20. With iron sights, I can see the target well but the sights are a fuzzy mess. Not very confidence inspiring, and not very accurate. Red dot's put the fun back into shooting for me. Now I can be just as accurate as I ever was.
Accuracy matters. You are responsible for every round you put down range. Start spraying and praying with fuzzy sights and/or fuzzy targets, you could end up in a lot of trouble.
Would you mind elaborating this point? Try as I might I can’t find an angle where I can see my front sight and not have the dot as an option as well, and a few angles where I can get at least the dot and my irons are completely useless.
(experimenting with my dry fire gun and an ITarget pro so I have an idea where the dot/sight/approximate bullet hit are in relation to each other)
The rest of your post I get.
There something else to consider and that is many self defense scenarios occur under poor lighting conditions. Then it is pointing the gun without clear visibility of the iron sights.
Have Sig 365XL-9-BXr3-RXZ w/ Remo 0 and Sig 320XF-BXR3-RXP w/ Remo 1+. Both of these co-witness the fixed night sights. Both of these seem to very reliable have put thousands of rounds thru each of them and have no issues.
Yes, you are correct in your stated opinion. However, we all (hopefully) continue to get older and with age comes limitations on eye sight (and other issues). The red dot (or green dot) optics on a handgun will increase you accuracy (for just about everyone) and most claim it has also made them more accurate when using iron sights. They certainly also reduce, for me the time required for the first shot/draw. They are also likely to allow you to have better view of your self defense target and other threats that might also be present. Lets you look where the threat is and focus on that rather than "front sight". I have both a Sig P320 and SigP365XL with optics, both carry just fine with holster that is fitted for them. Have found no cases where the red dot has "got in the way". Being a long time Glock fanboy, just left my Glock 19X with gunsmith to mill the slide for Red Dot and expect it to return to the most liked EDC pistol. "You are defending yourself and killing a person up front." - yes but I would hope that you are also moving toward cover at the same time and most bad guys will not stand still to allow you time to aim.
It boils down to the fact that many of us like to drive a stand transmission vehicle, but actually will buy an automatic for the replacement.
Just as you practiced with your "iron" sights it does take some practice with the red/green dot optic on a handgun. After just a little practice you will find that the red dot is easier (and faster) to line up for the first shot than your iron sights.
Also remember your "iron sights" are still there and visible. The amount of metal removed from the slide to allow mounting of the red dot will be more weight than the red dot so less weight. A bit different shape but just as concealable with holster designed for the combo.
Agreed. Practice, practice, practice. If you don't do that with either type of sight, you're not going to be very good at it.
Not always. Depends on the gun. For example, my P320 X5 came optic ready. But the plate you remove from the slide to mount a red dot has the rear sight mounted to it. But that's a target gun for me, not a carry gun. So I'm okay with it.
I did not have that issue in that my P320 was purchased with the optic already present. The rear sight is behind the optic and is clearly functional. Adding an optic in most cases also requires replacement of the iron sights that are "optic ready".
I think I’ll just get it milled and be done.
Yep, that's why I said it depends on the gun. I have a couple of P320's that came with red dots from the factory and suppressor height sights also.
The tech is coming along, but is still being held back.
Putting a modern optic on a pistol design that originated in the year 1902, is the problem. Like putting an EcoBoost into an AC Cobra.
-non reciprocating sights and optic
-thinner lower optic, no control board, just a chip
-QR release to get that junk off in adverse weather. I suppose just carrying a standard pistol on rainy days makes more sense.
-flush with slide top, flip up irons
-dot cant leave window during recoil. Light recoil.
The pistol and optic need designed together. Not separately. Until manufactures team up, we're not moving forward.
The Largo Arms Alien is a big leap forward. Try it, or a USPSA open class pistol, then compare to a reciprocating optic, carry optic type pistol.
We've got a long way to go.
I haven't made the jump to a CCW red dot, but for shooting games either mounting method works fine for me. Finding the dot on a reciprocating slide is no different than finding the front iron sight again after firing. It's just a matter of practice, and the willingness to put forth the effort. I've shot open division with an SAS II w/fixed optic, carry optics with countless pistols - it becomes second nature.
Good instruction also never hurts anybody.
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