Red Dot Sight for handgun

[mikemyers]

I purchased a High Standard Pistol that came with a ten year old Tasco ProPoint PDP3ST red dot sight. I have a user manual in the mail - will know more about it in around a week. The ProPoint has a 5 MOA red dot, illumination settings from 1 to 11, and (based on my single experience) it is very easy to see/use at an indoor range - illumination setting was "2", and could have easily been set to "1".

I have a relative who wants to buy something similar. His use would be on a S&W M41 with the rail already in place. This would be for target shooting at 15, 25, 50, and 100 yards. I'm trying to help him, but at the same time learn more about them for myself. At some point in the future, I might buy one as well.


First, MOA. Red Dot Sights are available in 1, 2, 3, 5, and up MOA. Would it be correct to say that for target shooting, the most useful would be 1 MOA?

I know these sights make it easier for target acquisition than iron sights, but that's not relevant here.

I believe a 1 MOA sight will appear to be 1" in diameter at 100 yards/meters. That might be fine for shooting hand-held, but if he tries to shoot with the gun on a 'rest', I can't see how this can be a good idea. For handheld shots, I think it would be good.


My last question concerns cost. Red Dot Sights are available from $50 or so, up to around $1000 and maybe even more. Some of that extra cost might cover making the scope more durable, more rugged, maybe better optics allowing more light to come through.... maybe other things I'm not aware of.


If I could afford it, and if I ever get serious about buying a new Red Dot Sight to replace my Tasco, the one I thought was a better choice was this Trijicon:

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product2.php?id=RMR&mid=Adjustable%20LED​

​

 

[CraigC]

Personally, I like a smaller dot that obscures less of the target. That said, if your buddy is shooting for accuracy at 100yds, matching the target to the dot is more important than having the smallest possible dot. You'll shoot more consistently with a 4MOA dot and the right target than a 1MOA dot and the wrong target.

I have had very good luck with the Vortex Strikefire on rifles but would suggest an UltraDot for a pistol. I like the MatchDot due to its adjustable reticle.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I use a 3moa FastFire III on a couple of pistols. I like the smaller sleeker look compared to some of the other options. I never have trouble with wandering zero with them compared to some of the more inexpensive sights out there

 

[mikemyers]

......I like the MatchDot due to its adjustable reticle.....

This is what you are recommending?
http://www.ultradotusa.com/ultradotdist2010_008.htm

or http://www.opticsplanet.com/ultradot-matchdot-2-red-dot-sight.html


Adjustable reticle sounds like a very good change over what I've been reading about.

Is there a good reason to get the "tube style" scopes for a handgun, rather than the new "low" designs such as what I put at the bottom of my original post? I get the feeling that the flatter design is for speed, but the tubular design is for accuracy. Is that true?

 

[mikemyers]

I use a 3moa FastFire III on a couple of pistols.......

I assume this is what you're recommending.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/sights/fastfire-series/fastfire-3


Maybe I'm reading these pages incorrectly, or just haven't read enough information, but I get the feeling that for competitive shooting, the tubular design is more popular.

 

[mikemyers]

Aha!!! Thanks for the information that led me to those links, which then led me to this excellent link that seems to be answering many of my questions:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm

Lots of reading to do.......

 

[CraigC]

Yes, the MatchDot II is the one I have. Although the Burris Fastfire II that we put on Dad's shotgun is a nice one too.

 

[Laphroaig]

First off, I think that 1 MOA would be too small for comfortable pistol shooting unless you do everything off of sandbags.

Second, while an adjustable dot size certainly would be a nice option, don't forget that all red dots have adjustable intensities which allows you to adjust the brightness. To me, a low intensity seems to make the dot smaller, higher intensities make it look bigger. I have several fixed dot sights and they all work for me for bullseye style pistol shooting. The 4 MOA ultradot seems to be the standard in that game.

Laphroaig

 

[CraigC]

First off, I think that 1 MOA would be too small for comfortable pistol shooting unless you do everything off of sandbags.

I don't see the logic in that.

 

[MovedWest]

I was able to talk my wife into letting me get the Trijicon RMR 3MOA red dot for my Desert Eagle.

The only concern I have with it is getting used to the sight acquisition. If you don't have the feel for it, finding the red dot at arm's length can be tricky. Once you find it though, it's pretty easy to maintain your sight picture. Being able to keep both eyes open and just put the dot on your target is nice. The 3MOA dot might be good out to 50 yards, but 100 yards is a stretch IMO.

I got it in nickel instead of black as I'm planning on sending the weapon to Robar for a full NP3 treatment after it's fully broken in.

-MW

 

[Laphroaig]

Well, at 25 yds. the dot size would be 1/4". Kinda small to concentrate on. Indoors at 50 ft. it would be something like 3/16". I never thought that my 4 MOA was too big while holding a wobbling pistol.

But you're the guy with the matchdot. What size do you dial in?

Laphroaig

 

[mikemyers]

......Being able to keep both eyes open and just put the dot on your target is nice......

I understand how the red dot seems to make it "easier", but why would it have anything to do with keeping both eyes open? Why wouldn't you do that anyway, regardless of what sight you prefer?

 

[mikemyers]

One more question; now that I've pretty much decided a "tube style" sight would be most appropriate for what I do, is there any reason to change from the Tasco ProPoint PDP3ST that I already have? It's supposed to have a 5 MOA red dot, but after reading all the new material, who knows what it actually has. It has 11 settings for brightness, and it is quite clear. The only thing it's missing is the set of polarizing filters that supposedly came with it when new (anyone know where to buy those?).

My question is only for target shooting - I know some of the newer sights are more rugged, waterproof, dirtproof, and so on, but would be there any reason to replace the Tasco with something newer? I suspect the answer is going to be "no".

 

[MovedWest]

I understand how the red dot seems to make it "easier", but why would it have anything to do with keeping both eyes open? Why wouldn't you do that anyway, regardless of what sight you prefer?

I've never been comfortable leaving both eyes completely open while maintaining a sight picture. I don't close my weak eye completely, moreover just squint with it. I can do both eyes open, but I hit my mark more often if I don't. But all that goes away using red dot.

 

[CraigC]

Well, at 25 yds. the dot size would be 1/4". Kinda small to concentrate on. Indoors at 50 ft. it would be something like 3/16". I never thought that my 4 MOA was too big while holding a wobbling pistol.

But you're the guy with the matchdot. What size do you dial in?

I don't see that as a problem at all. I use mine in the field so a 4MOA would be much too large for small game hunting. I adjust the MatchDot to 2MOA but would use 1MOA if it were capable.

 

[Charley C]

Mike;
The thing about red dot sights that no one so far seems to have mentioned is.....what kind of a weapon it's mounted on; on a revolver, all the red dot has to overcome is the recoil force of the round; but on a semi-auto pistol, the red dot is usually mounted to the slide, and must withstand the force caused by the slide cycling back, then abruptly stopping before returning. Most inexpensive red dots won't hold zero on semi-auto pistols for long.

The Trijicon pictured is a GREAT sight, but it's also "not inexpensive". IMO, the Burris Fast Fires are known to hold zero quite well, are VERY small & light, making them easy to holster, and can be had for under $200. (or thereabouts)

About "MOA"; ("minutes of angle") at 100 yards, a 1 MOA dot theoretically "covers" a 1 inch circle; (but it's smaller and harder to see than a 4 or 3 MOA dot ) If you're shooting many targets at 100 yards with a pistol, and using a 4 MOA red dot, you're very unlikely to see any 3" groups, (with a dot that "covers" 4 inches ). Personally, I don't plan to be shooting ANY 100 yd targets with my G 34, (assuming of course that Glock ever gets around to making the thing and sending it to my gun dealer. )

The thing about any kind of sights is, that they ALL look different to the different people using them, due to the fact that no two people's eyes are alike. IMO, that's why everyone needs to TRY the sights they plan to buy prior to spending their money; what looks great for "Tom", may not look "so great" for Dick or Harry!

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks, Charley_C.

Three scenarios.
First, what my relative wants to do. I discussed it with him, and he is planning to shoot at 15, 25, and 50 yards. At 50 yards, the "1 MOA" sight will be half an inch in diameter. Assuming it's still visible (never seen a 1 MOA sight image) that is probably what he needs. I think he'll put it on his S&W M41, so there is no problem of mounting on a slide.

Second, is what I want to do. I mostly want to learn using the standard iron sights, on most of my guns, but in addition, I'd like to learn about red dot sights on one of my two .22 target guns. After reading what's posted here and on the Bullseye page, I think the Tasco I now have is all I need. If it really is 5 MOA as the specs say, that's 5" at 100 yards, meaning around 3/16" at 15 yards, what I usually shoot. Nobody has given me any reason to "upgrade". It's already mounted on my High Standard, so I'll continue to use it as-is.

Third scenario is mounting one on a gun like a 1911. Before this, I never even realized one would put a red dot sight on a slide that's moving back and forth so violently. The idea of mounting a tube sight on a gun like that just doesn't sound reasonable (to me). I thought that was one of the reasons they make the lighter "open" style sights. I'm sure you're right - it will need to be a very high quality device to take all that punishment.


I started off thinking of the Trijicon, but after all the reading, I don't see any benefit for me. There doesn't seem to be much choice in 1 MOA sights, so I'm not sure what my relative might want. I suspect a 2 MOA sight might work well for his needs.


As to trying all the sights before buying, first of all, one needs to find a place to do that, and it wouldn't be right to do so at a store (even if they had all the sights), and then buy from the internet. When you suggested that, what were you thinking about how a person could do so?

 

[CraigC]

If you're shooting many targets at 100 yards with a pistol, and using a 4 MOA red dot, you're very unlikely to see any 3" groups, (with a dot that "covers" 4 inches ).

Popular misconception. You don't need to be able to see a 1" target to shoot a 1" group. Period. You need a target that you can consistently bracket your sights against, be it iron, red dot or conventional scope. In this regard, it doesn't matter what size the dot is.

 

[mikemyers]

.....You don't need to be able to see a 1" target to shoot a 1" group. Period. You need a target that you can consistently bracket your sights against, be it iron, red dot or conventional scope. In this regard, it doesn't matter what size the dot is.....

Before I went to the range with my red dot sight, I also would have said that you couldn't shoot a group smaller than the apparent size of the red dot. I sounds obvious... (??)

When I was standing there at the range, the red dot was "wobbling" all over. This got better as the day went on, but it was never stationary. So, I did the same thing I learned from Mr. Borland in a different discussion, and tried to center the "wobble", not the "dot". This is with what's supposed to be a 5 MOA sight, at 15 yards, using a 6" target (all I had with me at the time).

(All of what I have written here assumes that the person is shooting the gun hand-held, and not on any kind of a "rest". Since the red dot is constantly wobbling, I don't see any way to do better than try to center "the wobble", which hopefully will therefore be centering the red dot. I think that means the same thing as what CraigC just wrote.)

 

[CraigC]

You can't see a 1" target under a 4" dot. But you can see a 5" target under a 4" dot. So if you can consistently bracket your 4" dot against the 5" target, you will shoot near the gun's potential. Doesn't matter if you're shooting off hand or on the bench. The concept is the same. If the gun can shoot a 1" group, it will.

 

[mikemyers]

You can't see a 1" target under a 4" dot.......

I suspect you're quite a bit better at this than I am. I'm 100% sure I can currently see a 1" targe under a 4" dot, because MY 4" dot is wobbling all over the place. I suspect everyone has that problem, but some people are "better" at it, and others (me) are "worser" at it.


Something else I wonder about - my Tasco has adjustable illumination levels. Since the dot is just a reflection, it the brightness is turned down far enough, there is no reason why you couldn't see both the dot and the target behind it, if the illumination level allows it. I guess that's one more thing I can try tomorrow.


I should add that for me, none of this is very critical. I seem to be improving mostly by following the advice from Mr. Borland in a different thread, which is to not pay very much attention to things like this, and spend a LOT of attention on what he calls "the fundamentals". The part of me that's "working at improving myself" is following that, as best I can, but there's another part of me that just wants to enjoy shooting, and the red dot sight is like a new toy.


Oh, and 99% of my thoughts relate to target shooting. For home defense, I think the VERY BEST answer to all this is the Crimson Trace laser sight. No doubt about where the bullet is going to land, and just the red dot is probably enough to scare off any intruder. (I already have one of those. Yep, it points EXACTLY where the bullet should hit, but my dot moves around like an angry mosquito, never standing still. I think even a blink of an eye is enough to get it to react. Not a big problem for self defense, and maybe even an advantage, as the way it moves around makes it even more obvious to a person who has been "sighted" that he's vulnerable.

 

[Pete D.]

Red dot

it points EXACTLY where the bullet should hit, but my dot moves around like an angry mosquito, never standing still. I think even a blink of an eye is enough to get it to react.

That is the "normal" state with a dot sight. The thing moves. Using iron sights, one can convince oneself that the sights stop moving (they don't of course) but not so with a dot.
As you get more comfortable with the dot, and more skilled, the pattern described by the moving dot, the arc of movement, will get smaller and the dance will change from the jitterbug to a waltz.
About light intensity....it is a common practice amongst Bullseye shooters to keep the dot at lower intensity for the precision stages....nice crisp hsrd edged dot. Then, for the sustained fire stages, turn it up into a blob....easy to see and center....if the gun is sighted properly the bullets will go to the center of the dot and that is where the ten ring is.
Pete