reduced load 38 special?

[tasco 74]

you could try a different angle a let her try some mid range to hotter .357 mag loads a couple times........... then when she popped off the .38 spl it wouldn't seem so bad.... ????????

 

[joe_security]

What about the Federal HS 110 gr. non plus p? I still see this stuff on the shelves at the local shop.

 

[Manco]

Without going too far off-topic...

I suppose it's on-topic as long as it's relevant to determining the amount of recoil one can expect from barrels of different lengths.

Rate of acceleration and the force required to achieve it. Recoil is nothing more than backward acceleration in response to the bullet's forward acceleration.

Technically, isn't recoil defined instead as impulse, which is basically the momentum imparted by the bullet to the firearm and the shooter? It's more like a total of something as opposed to an instantaneous measure of acceleration or force, at least the way I was using the term. In that case, by the law of conservation of momentum, recoil would be the mass of the bullet multiplied by its velocity (applied in the opposite direction), meaning that shorter barrels would indeed result in less total recoil, all else being equal (and a louder blast from wasting more gas and energy).

Yes. The gun is in full recoil before the bullet exits the muzzle.

By "full recoil" you are apparently referring to the peak reaction force applied to the gun, which does indeed have a major effect on how recoil is perceived, but it is not recoil per se, as I understand it. We could say that barrel length has no effect on the "snappiness" of a particular load, if this is the effect of the peak force, but then again perception is complex, and for example higher actual recoil may combine with the same peak force to be perceived by some as being "snappier" even though it is not (.40 S&W versus 9mm may be an instance of such a phenomenon).

With some fast powders fired in long barrels, it's entriely possible for the bullet to be moving faster before it exits the muzzle than at the time of exit...and it was proven some years back with a 26-inch .308 rifle by lopping off an inch at a time and firing different handloads with various powders at each increment.

Absolutely, that's what happens when there is no longer enough gas to pressurize the barrel sufficiently to overcome friction.

Typical handgun powders hit peak pressure/force and acceleration rapidly... within a half-inch of bullet movement. Some really fast powders...like Bullseye...will do it before the bullet base has even cleared the case mouth.

That may true for the peak pressure/force and acceleration, but in typical handguns the bullet will still accelerate through the whole length of the barrel, and the shorter the two barrels being compared are, the more significant the difference in bullet velocity and recoil impulse will be between them.

Quick example, and using round numbers for simplicity.

If we assume 30 fps per inch of barrel gained or lost, and using a 4-inch .357 magnum revolver for the example...158 grain bullet at 1250 fps...we're getting 120 fps from the barrel. That leaves 1130 fps unaccounted for.

I think that's quite way off, even for a simplified example. Refer to the following tables for actual data:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

As you can see, even the difference between 4" and 2" barrels (the lengths in your original example) is quite a bit more significant than you're suggesting (based on longer barrels, I realize, but the truth is the truth). Quite simply, the bullet is accelerated for longer and to a significantly higher velocity in a 4" barrel than it is in a 2" barrel, and therefore the resulting impulse is significantly higher (what I said originally) even though the peak reactive force should be the same (what you just said).

Now, how this difference is perceived by the shooter depends on the individual and is a complex subject, especially since even a couple of inches of barrel length can add substantial mass to the front of the gun, which also changes its balance. But I do think that recoil is lighter, at least in one measurable parameter--impulse, which normally defines "recoil"--when a gun's barrel is shorter.

 

[zxcvbob]

With the resurgence of old cartridges for CAS, how about .38 Short Colts? I mean for a training round.

 

[Oyeboten]

Possibly her issue is actually more in how she is gripping the Revolver, than that the recoil as such is bothering her.

With a correct and firm grip, she would probably be just fine with full power loadings.

 

[1911Tuner]

Manco...Not gonna get into an involved, off-topic discussion here.

But short form...yes to all the technical/scientific stuff...but the initial impulse at peak force determines it...not the absolute MV...which is realized when the peak force and acceleration has fallen off to about 10% of the top numbers. And...30 fps/inch is an average...not an absolute...that I've found to be pretty much correct.

Try this, if you think that barrel length and muzzle velocity are the "kickers." See if you can find an old revolver that's seen better days and is due for a new barrel. Unscrew the old one....and shoot it without the barrel. You'll find that recoil is equally lively whether the barrel is there or not.

To keep from cluttering up this discussion...and because it's a point of interest...I'll start a thread titled "Recoil and Barrel Length" in General Handgun. You're cordially invited. Look for it in about an hour.

 

[1911Tuner]

Manco...Here's a link to it. I've posted it here because it's related to the thread topic, and some of the subscribers may want to go have a look.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6766334#post6766334

 

[dashootist]

First, lock the LCR in the closet and buy her a K-frame 38spl revolver and shoot light load. As she become more confident, like after a few thoursand rounds, she will be able to handle the LCR.

 

[Dirty Bob]

As an alternative to the K-frame, may I suggest the SP101? It's a small-frame revolver that's about double the weight of the LCR. The factory stocks are surprisingly good, especially for many women. Although heavy for a small-frame gun, the SP101 is lighter than K-frames and could even be used as a carry gun. If she used it for home and the LCR for carry, she'd have two very similar 5-shot revolvers. I suspect the SP101 would be quite tame with wadcutters.

I load the Lee 148-grain wadcutter and love it. I don't know the velocity, but I'm using data from the Lee manual and am using 3.0gr of Win 231. This bullet was fired from a 2-inch Airweight snubby and penetrated four 1-gallon jugs of water and was stopped inside the 5th. Recoil was mild. Here's the bullet:

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[147 Grain]

My wife practices at the range using 148-gr. wadcutters in her LCR and upgrades to Speer Gold Dot 135-gr. Short Barrel ammo for SD.

 

[zxcvbob]

load the Lee 148-grain wadcutter and love it. I don't know the velocity, but I'm using data from the Lee manual and am using 3.0gr of Win 231. This bullet was fired from a 2-inch Airweight snubby and penetrated four 1-gallon jugs of water and was stopped inside the 5th. Recoil was mild.

I just bought that bullet mold and cast a few hundred of 'em Sunday afternoon. Tried them tonight, over 3.0 grains of American Select. I love this bullet! Every shot went where I told it to. (now I gotta learn to do my part better)

 

[W.E.G.]

I load the Lee 148-grain wadcutter and love it. I don't know the velocity, but I'm using data from the Lee manual and am using 3.0gr of Win 231.

cat-sneeze load

 

[zxcvbob]

You didn't set the cartridge length in your QuickLOAD calculation. Wadcutters are seated with almost the whole bullet inside the case (otherwise they won't even chamber)

 

[147 Grain]

FYI: A typical 148-gr. factory wadcutter load is advertised at 710 fps out of a 4" barrel.

 

[BCRider]

Without having read all the posts since there's so many I'll ask "Does she enjoy shooting for sport as well as having the gun for defense?". If so then get her to join one of the local shooting clubs and partake in some light duty competitions or take a self defense shooting course or two. The focus on actually shooting well and hitting the targets as well as the bit of extra pressure from having a timer or teacher behind her will encourage her to focus on the job of getting bullets accurately downrange and not to focus on the recoil. Also the control and judgement about if and where the bullets go could well avoid an accident at some point. An accident that may be due to her not wanting to draw the gun when needed or perhaps using it when it's not. I'm sure all will agree that a gun without training of the operator either through courses or competition where the shooter is forced to think and decide under pressure is a dangerous gun.

On the other hand if she got not just this gun but a gun at all because she was badgered into it then she'll never like it or any other and it's all for naught.

 

[postalnut25]

I've read some of these suggestions. I like the 38 long colts in my revolvers for my daughters to shoot. It's pretty mild, and they can handle it.

To go slightly off topic, I saw that 38 short colts were suggested. I was under the impression that those rounds had heel type bullets that were as wide as the cartridge case, making them too big for the bore on a 38/357. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. I have never shot, handled, or even seen a 38 short colt, so I'm honestly curious.

 

[foghornl]

If you don't "roll your own" ammo, either the 125-Gr "cowboy action" loads or the 148-Gr wadcutters previously mentioned should both be very easy shooters.

I also found some PMC brand (IIRC) 130-Gr full metal jacket rounds that were quite pleasant in my snubby.

 

[withdrawn34]

If she is not CCing it, maybe she could consider getting rid of the LCR, and buying a bigger, heavier .38 revolver. A longer barrel and more weight are two things the LCR was not designed for, but are things that reduce felt recoil.

By the way, how long has she been shooting for? If she's a first time shooter, just about everything except .22 maybe seem like a lot of recoil. Maybe once she shoot it more she will get used to it.

But again, if it's just for HD, the LCR wasn't a great choice. It is designed as a carry revolver.

 

[cougar1717]

She's 59

As a side her father wanted her to get a .22

It doesn't matter how old you get, your parents will always be your parents!