Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Refreshing - DU

Discussion in 'Legal' started by tellner, Aug 20, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. tellner

    tellner member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Oregon
    I went to Democratic Underground's forum searching for some research materials. I didn't find what I was looking for, but I did find something that brought a smile. There's a who sub-forum on gun issues. There are antis, but most of the folks there take a view of gun ownership and citizens' RKBA that wouldn't be out of place here. It's strange for a place that is full of old-style Democratic Leftists but gives me some hope that a wedge issue might turn someday to a non-partisan one.
     
  2. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,665
    I'd take it with a grain o' salt. There are some people that like to hang out at left-leaning (FAAAAAR left in DU's case!) message boards and sell the RKBA and self-defense. To take the argument right to the gun-grabbers. ;)

    Then again, some of the pro-2A folks on there have a very high post count, leading me to think that what I described above is NOT their "raison d'etre!" (sp?!)

    Heck...my little corner of WNC does not have a majority of Democrats, but there's more than a few of 'em. And we DO have a majority of gun owners.

    Still....the day that the Democratic party as a whole starts treating Feinsten, Kennedy, Klinton, and Schumer like lepers the same way the Republicans treat lunatics like Mayor Bloomberg will be the day I buy into the Dem platform lie that "we support the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms!" :rolleyes:
     
  3. tellner

    tellner member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Oregon
    Yep, you right. Of course, we lefties would say that as soon as you all start treating Santorum, Cheney, Robertson and Frist like Old Testament lepers we'll be glad to return the favor :)

    Seriously, a lot of the gunnies show up elsewhere on the forum with strong progressive positions.

    In a really weird way the George W. regime has been one of the best things for gun-friendly leftists and progressives. All we have to say is "Do you really want to be defenseless in the face of that?" Puts a whole different face on Jefferson, Madison and the RKBA.
     
  4. crazed_ss

    crazed_ss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,652
    Location:
    Sunny San Diego
    Hmm.. no, they really arent that open minded. Their gun forum is made up from people other than the normal posters. Someone guy made a thread in the general forume about personal responsibility being a trait of the democratic party.
    http://www.democraticunderground.co...sg&forum=364&topic_id=1965456&mesg_id=1965456
    I asked why democrats are always trying to ban or restrict guns if they're so interested in personal responsibility. One of the responses I got..

    Dems have done nothing to take away guns from honest sportsen, but we do want to keep "cop killer" bullets out the hands of criminals and weapons which no ordianry sportsman needs such as machine guns out of the pocession of criminals. Funny, how the police seem to back the Democrats up on this and yet we are supposed to be weak on law and order?


    :barf:

    Then I got banned.. Funny thing is.. I'm a registered democrat.. got a card and everything. Guess it's time for me to find a new party.
     
  5. Liberal Gun Nut

    Liberal Gun Nut Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    Messages:
    388
    That's exactly what the RKBA is about. It's so that people can defend themselves against whatever government tries to push them too far. Liberals should support the RKBA. There is authentic support for it over at DU.
     
  6. Marshall

    Marshall Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,569
    Location:
    Oklahoma, Green Country
    When pigs fly.

    I'm reminded of the "leopards never change their spots" saying. They only appear to be different.
     
  7. Number 6

    Number 6 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    828
    I have a colleague that is a communist, but also is a supporter of the second amendment. Just because one is a Democratic or liberal does not mean they are going to support all of the issues that the more liberal members of the party does. The Democratic party as a whole is a tad more diverse in orientations than the Republican party, so trying to pin them down gets very difficult. Regional dynamics and support bases play into what issues some Democrats will support.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2006
  8. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,434
    Look in the dictionary under "cognitave dissonance" ...or, maybe your favorite psych textbook...

    If you can't find that, look up "Bull$h!t"
    Same difference.
     
  9. GigaBuist

    GigaBuist Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,261
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    I highlighted what I find disturbing about the DU mindset about gun rights there. No offense to you, Liberal Gun Nut, but in my readings over there (and it has been some time since I visited) that seems to be the mindset of most folks.

    I worry that the pro-gun liberals will return to an anti-gun stance once Bush is out of office. It seems like a very reactive stance. Of course, this is coming from a guy that got talked into purchasing a gun shortly after the 2000 elections based on the fear factor of "what if Gore won?" so I'm not exactly one to talk. However, every gun purchased by myself has been under the Bush administration (which I voted for) initially out of fear of the (future) government and then later just as a hobby.

    I kind of what how many of those people would be arming up under the pretense of "what if Bush won?" I suppose. Obviously they feel fear now, so they arm themselves. On the other hand the conservatives and Republican leaning voters also continue to arm themselves. The later does it because of principle -- not because of a demonstrated fear. I think that's the big difference.

    If the only reason DU members are arming themselves is because of Bush then there's no reason for them to keep it up come 2008 -- just two years away. Now, if they really are principled men and women we'll find out in 2008. Are they acting on fear or principle? Or, more accurately, have they learned the principle reasons that we own firearms as private citizens as a consequence of their fear?

    Time will tell.
     
  10. Number 6

    Number 6 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    828
    I am well aware of what cognitive dissonance is, and so is my colleague. There are many forms of communism and this person has worked out for herself a belief system that makes sense. I do not agree with it, but I understand her logic. My colleague is a tremendously smart person, but that does not mean that two reasonable people cannot disagree on some issues. This is just one person who I might disagree with on some issues, but can find some common ground on the right to bear arms.
     
  11. RealGun

    RealGun Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    7,257
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    DU doesn't matter. What counts is Congress, and the current rating is 100% anti-gun among Senate Democrats. If DU wants to pretend that guns are no longer an issue, they better get some coordination with their Senators. Until then, the DU folks are just finding another way to obfuscate. Folks independent enough to defend themselves are anathema to everything Democrats stand for.
     
  12. Rugerlvr

    Rugerlvr Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,145
    Location:
    Utah
    I'm a Utah liberal.

    Which means fairly moderate. What I am is liberal on everything in the bill of rights. 2nd amendment included. Guns for all law-abiding citizens.

    I really wish some of the posters here could believe that there are plenty of us to the left of them politically who are RKBA supporters. But we all seem to be written off as liars.

    That's not fair, and will do nothing to enhance the dialogue.
     
  13. Dravur

    Dravur Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    Longmont, CO
    No no,

    You all have missed the point, Like Di-Fi and her Ilk. They aren't against ALL gun control, just YOU having guns is out of the question. Di-Fi can own one, maybe even Chuckie Schumer and any other leftist, but not YOU!

    YOU cannot be trusted. You have to be protected by the state. So, the next time a Dem says they are pro-gun, just remember, they mean it for THEMSELVES and not for YOU.

    Silly Peon, why would you need to protect yourself.
     
  14. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    7,920
    Location:
    Kingsport Tennessee
    chestnuts roasting on an open fire.....

    Time to drag out one of my favorite quotes of all time;
     
  15. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,479
    Location:
    Seattle
    Just realize that a fair portion of the population at DU is made up of "insurgents" from right-wing boards who are not representative of the typical left-leaning person.
     
  16. RealGun

    RealGun Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    7,257
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    It is an issue of credibility, when elected officials, who definitely characterize a party, are radical in one way, while some party member claims that the officials don't represent their views. One would have to ask the question why one stays with a party that does not actively represent them.

    There is the quandary in a system that has only two viable parties, those capable of fielding and funding a candidate with a chance of getting elected. For example, if one is pro-gun and pro-choice, he might find a conflict and have to prioritize what is important in a voting choice or even how he would characterize his politics.
     
  17. LightningJoe

    LightningJoe Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    796
    Location:
    The good part of Dallas (i.e. not Dallas)
    Number 6:


    Communists have used guns quite a bit. But once they're in power, RKBA is unheard of.


    Prisoner to Number 2: "Who is Number 1?"
     
  18. Number 6

    Number 6 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    828
    There are a variety of different forms of Marxist theory. Some versions are more violent and repressive than others. This person is not a Stalinist, Leninist, or a Maoist. Placing my colleague in the same category as Stalin, Lenin, and Mao, is not reflective of her beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2006
  19. Helmetcase

    Helmetcase Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    706
    Oh goody the same old "liberals can't possibly like guns" argument again!

    A very substantial part of the reason I've not spent much time here recently is that it gets pretty tiresome listening to the same stupid **** from people who look gift horses in the mouth constantly. You should simply accept the fact that at least some substantial portion of people who don't share your right wing beliefs do accept and embrace gladly the RKBA. You should be glad that some of us are around, as it makes protecting the RKBA that much easier for all us.

    It seems some (many?) of you do all you can to alienate as many pro-RKBA liberals as you can, you use baseless ad hominem attacks (like the notion that we'll stop believing in the right to self defense when W goes back to his ranch for good or the unprovable assertion that DU posters in support of the RKBA aren't really liberals) to try to divide or drive off those who aren't as right wing as you are, and you generally drive a wedge between two groups of people--really, one group, the group of people who respect the RKBA--over some stupid political squabble that isn't relevant to our cause.

    In short, it's so painfully counterproductive to our goals that I can barely bear the thought that pro-RKBA community can include those who can be so petty, selfish, stupid, and willing to forgo embracing something that benefits our cause because they'd rather be bashing an idealogy they don't like.

    Nothing hurts the cause of gun rights more than infighting and petty squabbling between gun owners on stupid **** like this. There is some definite portion of the left of center public that accepts gun rights. There are no conclusive numbers to how big that portion is, but it does exist, and you should accept us as brothers in arms. If you choose not to, it's an example of you hurting the RKBA cause. Period. If you disagree...then, fine, **** you. :banghead: :cuss:
     
  20. Marshall

    Marshall Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,569
    Location:
    Oklahoma, Green Country
    With the exception of voting democrat.

    The problem is, once a democrat is in the senate, the pressure to succumb to their left wing party is too great. Also, the definition of RKBA to most left wingers is a far cry from what we're looking for. Many lefties will say they are for RKBA but only in the way they sit fit for you to do so.

    "Sure, we are for RKBA, as long as they are not semi-auto rifles or shotguns, as long as handguns can't hold over 10 rounds, as long as they are in a national registry so we can come get them when we decide to do so, etc."

    It's too risky to vote for Dems that say they are for RKBA. They are a wolf in sheep's clothing, and even if not, they are vote thrown down the drain for our cause because the pressure to vote against the "least restrictive party" on this issue, is too great.
     
  21. Helmetcase

    Helmetcase Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    706
    Whatever, Marshall. Clearly it depends on the candidate. Every one needs to be evaluated on their own merits. There are Dems that have voted with us recently, and those candidates should be rewarded for doing so. What kind of message would it send about the RKBA community if a Senator or Congressman votes against the AWB, against allowing frivolous suits against gun manufacturers, etc...and we turn on them anyway? Screw that. It goes without saying that there are Repubs we can't trust either, and Dems we can. Deny that at the risk of being even more obviously one of those dividing characters I was warning about.

    And you're dead ****ing wrong. Nothing hurts our cause more than a lack of unity.

    As for this "pressure" you're talking about, show me some examples of those who've gone from being outspoken pro-RKBA Senators to being antis. Max Baucus? Nope. Bill Nelson of NE? Nope. Harry Reid? Nope. How about Brian Schweitzer, governor of MT? He's on the national stage...he succumbing to pressure yet? Nope.

    In any event, a stupid argument. The point here is this--if you're trying to shut out or denigrate members of the RKBA community because they're not as right wing as you are, YOU are the one hurting the cause. It's not about party affiliation--I vote for the candidate that protects our rights, regardless of party.
     
  22. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,812
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    "You should simply accept the fact that at least some substantial portion of people who don't share your right wing beliefs do accept and embrace gladly the RKBA."

    Please show me one member of congress that has a "D" next to his/her name who has a solid record of voting FOR every pro-gun bill and AGAINST every anti-gun bill in the last 4 years?
     
  23. Helmetcase

    Helmetcase Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    706
    Click on the link provided in my previous post, and then remove the boot from your craw.

    Then, once you've had some coffee and your brain warms up, realize that even if I couldn't show you any "D" folks with such a record, it would in no way suggest that there's anything wrong with my statement as quoted by you.

    See if you can figure out why. (Hint: "people who don't share your right wing beliefs" does not equal "Democrats in the US Congress") :rolleyes:
     
  24. RealGun

    RealGun Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    7,257
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    I believe it is fair to characterize Democrats as very much like the ACLU. Your rights are all fine and dandy as long as they don't include gun ownership.

    Thinking of it another way, if I wanted to support a pro-life or pro-choice position, isn't the issue sufficiently polarized to have a clear choice.
     
  25. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,812
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    My boots are hanging in the shoe rack right where they belong thank you.

    It matters not what the voting populace of the D party believe in regards to RKBA, they keep electing represntatives that are solid anti-RKBA.

    These people that we send to washington are just that, REPRESENTATIVES. If they vote anti-RBKA every chance they get and have a "D" behind their name, the REPRESENT the D party as anti-RBKA.

    Simple logic.

    BTW, I am not right wing. That is a fallacy spouted by most of the rank and file Liberals. If you aren't a socialist, your a "right wing facist nut job."

    I read DU daily, you can't tell me that is not a favorite quote.

    Now please, argue the logic of the statement with out resorting to personal attacks about my state of alertness and the current position of my footgear.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page