Carbon_15
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Has the Suppreme Court ever ruled on refusing consent to a search equaling suspision or prob. cause?
Refusing consent to a search
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waterhouse
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Not that I'm aware of. When I was in law enforcement we were told specifically and repeatedly by several lawyers that under no circumstances could we use the fact that someone exercised their right to not be searched against them.
I'm not a lawyer though.
I'm not a lawyer though.
Deanimator
Member
That is correct.
Refusal to consent is NOT probable cause, regardless of empty threats that may be made to the contrary.
NavyLCDR
member
I hope this link is the correct one to Busted - The Citizen's Guide to Surviving a Police Encounter (I can't do the youtube website at work). Having survived my own police encounter over open carry, this video is very good.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
Too bad all the examples were of people who were actually engaging in illegal activities, but the same principles hold true when legally transporting or carrying firearms.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
Too bad all the examples were of people who were actually engaging in illegal activities, but the same principles hold true when legally transporting or carrying firearms.
Hungry Seagull
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I may or may not consent to a LEO's request to search. Usually I do because there is nothing going on that requires hiding from such a search. I would think that a normal ho-hum encounter with a LEOs usually does NOT generate a request to search. I have had dozens of ... encounters over the years over stuff like.. speed or logbooks, weights etc but none that required a search.
But one time years ago Troopers show up and inform me of a sworn complaint and that they would like to search my vehicle. I told them prior to thier search exactly what they will find and where. They searched, find everything in it's place and nothing that was the original complaint and let me go on my way. No problem.
In those days if someone had a problem with you, sometimes they call into a hotline a drug like tip to cause the system to hunt, find you and stop to search you and your vehicle for the alledged drugs. Sometimes these searches are very deep and destroys the vehicle's interior particularly if subject refuses such a search.
It's best to not lie down with dogs that have odors that causes police dogs to get excited and overall your search experiences will be positive and ho hum.
Now down by the mexican border, the dog sniffs your 5th wheel and sometimes your trailer. You better hope that you exercised sufficient control of your vehicle at all times along the border zone so that no one is permitted to place any object or hide aboard this vehicle.
Let em search. Now if you are breaking the law and generate a suspicition for a LEO to ask to search, you are not going to get anywhere. If you did refuse and they searched anyway, you better hope that they found NOTHING so you can do something about it later with a lawyer.
We used to process repo'ed cars that were dropped off and unfortunately alot of these cars contained... documents, trash and general mess to make these searches very unpleasant and in a few cases have the entire vehicle sealed off as a biohazard requiring a hazmat team.
Now THOSE are the memories.
But one time years ago Troopers show up and inform me of a sworn complaint and that they would like to search my vehicle. I told them prior to thier search exactly what they will find and where. They searched, find everything in it's place and nothing that was the original complaint and let me go on my way. No problem.
In those days if someone had a problem with you, sometimes they call into a hotline a drug like tip to cause the system to hunt, find you and stop to search you and your vehicle for the alledged drugs. Sometimes these searches are very deep and destroys the vehicle's interior particularly if subject refuses such a search.
It's best to not lie down with dogs that have odors that causes police dogs to get excited and overall your search experiences will be positive and ho hum.
Now down by the mexican border, the dog sniffs your 5th wheel and sometimes your trailer. You better hope that you exercised sufficient control of your vehicle at all times along the border zone so that no one is permitted to place any object or hide aboard this vehicle.
Let em search. Now if you are breaking the law and generate a suspicition for a LEO to ask to search, you are not going to get anywhere. If you did refuse and they searched anyway, you better hope that they found NOTHING so you can do something about it later with a lawyer.
We used to process repo'ed cars that were dropped off and unfortunately alot of these cars contained... documents, trash and general mess to make these searches very unpleasant and in a few cases have the entire vehicle sealed off as a biohazard requiring a hazmat team.
Now THOSE are the memories.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Exercise your rights. Never consent to a search. There are only three ways a search is legal,(1)a search warrant issued by a judge and carried out by an officer of the court, (2) probable cause,(3) YOUR consent. If they have either of the first two,they won't bother asking your PERMISSION. Rights are like muscles,use 'em or loose 'em. Don't forfeit them for the sake of convienience
chuckusaret
member
We were stopped in one of those scheduled traffic stop programs when returning from the range. Yes I let the LEO look in my trunk. Needless to say we were the center of attraction for a while. We had so many assorted guns the LEO's over looked the potato launcher. No, problem, the LEO's thanked us and said have a nice evening, and we were on our way.
Hungry Seagull
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jimmyraythompson, Probable Cause is the sticking point. Let's see...
Officer Roscoe: Ya see heah, I need to search this heah Duke Boys's General Lee.
Duke Boys: What is your reason for asking for this search Officer Roscoe?
Officer Roscoe will probably sputter, fume and get angry and state that the General Lee needs to be searching and proper. And that the Duke Boys dont need to know why neigther.
Now if it turns out that way and the Duke Boys refuse and still get searched. Then they will need to find a Lawyer and take Officer Roscoe to Court now wont they?
Life isnt easy, but things get complicated very quickly.
Officer Roscoe: Ya see heah, I need to search this heah Duke Boys's General Lee.
Duke Boys: What is your reason for asking for this search Officer Roscoe?
Officer Roscoe will probably sputter, fume and get angry and state that the General Lee needs to be searching and proper. And that the Duke Boys dont need to know why neigther.
Now if it turns out that way and the Duke Boys refuse and still get searched. Then they will need to find a Lawyer and take Officer Roscoe to Court now wont they?
Life isnt easy, but things get complicated very quickly.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I taught both of my daughters not to allow requested searches. My eldest was asked at a routine stop if she would allow a search,she refused(emphatically). She was already late for her curfue because the car ahead of her had allowed a search. The officer simply thanked her and wished her a good evening. Probable cause is not that arbitrary and "evidence" found may well be thrown out because it wasn't lawfully obtained.
Refusal to consent =/= probable cause. Even if you manage to find an officer that thinks otherwise, the judge sure won't.
To answer the original question, AFAIK SCOTUS has not ruled on this, because it hasn't had to. The lower courts will slap it down reliably.
Mike
To answer the original question, AFAIK SCOTUS has not ruled on this, because it hasn't had to. The lower courts will slap it down reliably.
Mike
geophysicishooter
Member
I don't know why anyone ever consents to a search, even when they "have nothing to hide". That's precisely the time one MUST refuse to consent to a search by LE.
I've known cops simply to go fishing, who would ask just to see if the person would consent and see what they find.
Most often, it seems, people just consent out of fear, which itself is scary. Everytime someone consents to a search it degrades the ability of everyone else to exercise their rights.
I've known cops simply to go fishing, who would ask just to see if the person would consent and see what they find.
Most often, it seems, people just consent out of fear, which itself is scary. Everytime someone consents to a search it degrades the ability of everyone else to exercise their rights.
This is a little extreme and I'm sure I would not have the guts to do it. I think he probably went too far. This is a guy refusing a search at a border patrol check point 75 miles from the border.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFS7oZtE8Ks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFS7oZtE8Ks
Yes and no. Obtaining consent is always preferable to doing a search based upon PC because the PC for the search cannot be challenged in court. I always ask for consent except in instances where it is just glaringly obvious that the PC cannot be challenged successfully.
Refusing to consent is the equivalent of a call in poker. It forces the cop to decide if he is bluffing, or if he actually has PC (actually, he will have decided that before he asks, probably).
Mike
jimmyraythomason
Member
ITSM,Probable cause can be challenged,otherwise no officer,intent on a search,would bother to ask permission.
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If I believed that there was some legitimate reason for a search, I might consent. But I would not do so without knowing the reason.
The problem is that some police officers have told me that if someone refuses a search request, "they'll be sorrry, I'll beat the s**t out of them and find something to arrest them for."
There are (I hope) still some good cops. There are certainly the other kind.
Jim
The problem is that some police officers have told me that if someone refuses a search request, "they'll be sorrry, I'll beat the s**t out of them and find something to arrest them for."
There are (I hope) still some good cops. There are certainly the other kind.
Jim
627PCFan
Member
Probable cause is just a lie away at any given time.
"son, I smell weed. Step out of the car"
and a searching they will go regardless........
"son, I smell weed. Step out of the car"
and a searching they will go regardless........
Hungry Seagull
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If yer around weed long enough you smell it everywhere for a long time without it being present.
I point to my own experience after working a pizza joint for 6 months, I smelled pizza everywhere for a long time and could not stand to touch the stuff.
I point to my own experience after working a pizza joint for 6 months, I smelled pizza everywhere for a long time and could not stand to touch the stuff.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Yes, there are LEOs who will abuse their authority,not much you can do about that unless you are willing to go through endless channels. Such activity by "rogue" cops can be reported to your states AG,may or may not do any good. However,always exercise your rights or learn to live WITHOUT them.
Stirling XD
Member
I remember watching a Dateline (I think) several years (mid '90s) ago about some of the cops in central Florida. They asked to search each vehicle they stopped for speeding or any other traffic violation. Sometimes they found drugs as it was a major drug smuggling route. It was also the main interstate to Orlando and Disney world. They showed the dashboard cam footage when a family of four were stopped.
They were from out of state and on their way to Disney World for a family vacation. The officer was real friendly and when he was done writing the ticket he asked if he could search the vehicle for drugs or drug related material. The dad consented since he new he didn't have anything illegal. Amid the swimtrunks and sunscreen the officer found several hundred dollars in cash. The officer stated the he believed this money was going to be used to purchase drugs and that he was going to confiscate it. He then let them go in their way.
This was not an isolated incident. It happened to a lot of people. If anyone wanted their money back, they had to hire a lawyer and it usually cost them more money than they lost. And very few people were successful. I hope that practice has changed. If there was any followup, I missed it.
So I won't consent to any searches.
They were from out of state and on their way to Disney World for a family vacation. The officer was real friendly and when he was done writing the ticket he asked if he could search the vehicle for drugs or drug related material. The dad consented since he new he didn't have anything illegal. Amid the swimtrunks and sunscreen the officer found several hundred dollars in cash. The officer stated the he believed this money was going to be used to purchase drugs and that he was going to confiscate it. He then let them go in their way.
This was not an isolated incident. It happened to a lot of people. If anyone wanted their money back, they had to hire a lawyer and it usually cost them more money than they lost. And very few people were successful. I hope that practice has changed. If there was any followup, I missed it.
So I won't consent to any searches.
Hungry Seagull
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:Banghead:
Completely forgot the money.
Ive learned to be careful and that was one of the reasons we relied on a Visa or Mastercard type transactions alot of time downtown. Kinda hard to argue with a check book or bank card.
Bulk cash? Oh boy.
Completely forgot the money.
Ive learned to be careful and that was one of the reasons we relied on a Visa or Mastercard type transactions alot of time downtown. Kinda hard to argue with a check book or bank card.
Bulk cash? Oh boy.
I gotta say that the confiscation of cash and cars by police is an awful abnegation of personal property rights, and the Supremes should have said no. But they said OK.
I believe that the Supremes have ruled that simple denial of a search can not be taken as probably cause for a search, since that would abridge the right to refuse. However, they have allowed a lot of things that the common man would consider to be more or less the same thing. (All you conservatives who are afraid the liberals will take away your guns should note that the right side of the court took the lead on this.) The entire block of rulings on traffic stops is very complex, and if your lawyer happens to be riding with you, he may ask for time to consult his law library before giving advice. The only way to cope is to keep your car clean, and sniff the air (gauging the reason for the stop and the mood of the officers).
I believe that the Supremes have ruled that simple denial of a search can not be taken as probably cause for a search, since that would abridge the right to refuse. However, they have allowed a lot of things that the common man would consider to be more or less the same thing. (All you conservatives who are afraid the liberals will take away your guns should note that the right side of the court took the lead on this.) The entire block of rulings on traffic stops is very complex, and if your lawyer happens to be riding with you, he may ask for time to consult his law library before giving advice. The only way to cope is to keep your car clean, and sniff the air (gauging the reason for the stop and the mood of the officers).
mljdeckard
Member
In Utah, the smell of pot, smoked OR RAW, is probable cause to search the vehicle.
Now, a cop MIGHT search with PC without saying anything, but a judge is going to ask them if there was some compelling reason they couldn't wait for a warrant. If you have the PC, why not call in the warrant, wake up the judge, and cover your butt?
No good can ever come from consenting to a search. Period. I THINK, (and I started a 30 minute debate in a law class over this,) that if you as a citizen are so helpless and ignorant that you need Miranda to advise you that you have the right to remain silent, the right to an attorney, etc, you should ALSO be advised that you have the right to refuse any searches as well. Most people, when a cop leans in, looks at them hard, and tells them; "You can say no, but I can get a warrant in 20 minutes," will capitulate because they don't understand that officers are allowed to bluff.
Now, a cop MIGHT search with PC without saying anything, but a judge is going to ask them if there was some compelling reason they couldn't wait for a warrant. If you have the PC, why not call in the warrant, wake up the judge, and cover your butt?
No good can ever come from consenting to a search. Period. I THINK, (and I started a 30 minute debate in a law class over this,) that if you as a citizen are so helpless and ignorant that you need Miranda to advise you that you have the right to remain silent, the right to an attorney, etc, you should ALSO be advised that you have the right to refuse any searches as well. Most people, when a cop leans in, looks at them hard, and tells them; "You can say no, but I can get a warrant in 20 minutes," will capitulate because they don't understand that officers are allowed to bluff.
I never consent to a search. What good will come out of it for me?
Here's an example that someone else posted on another board of whey even if you "have nothing to hide," why you still shouldn't consent to a search.
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=45340&page=5
Posted by "WhoDat"
"As unlikely as this seems, the car I bought my son about 6 months ago had a little wooden pot container with pot and a one-hitter in it hidden up under the seat. No way would anyone have found it except a dog, a LEO, or someone giving the car a thorough cleaning.
He had been stopped a few times in the last 6 months, but luckily it never progressed to a search. He found it while cleaning out the car for a sale. I think he was surprised that I knew exactly what it was"
Here's an example that someone else posted on another board of whey even if you "have nothing to hide," why you still shouldn't consent to a search.
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=45340&page=5
Posted by "WhoDat"
"As unlikely as this seems, the car I bought my son about 6 months ago had a little wooden pot container with pot and a one-hitter in it hidden up under the seat. No way would anyone have found it except a dog, a LEO, or someone giving the car a thorough cleaning.
He had been stopped a few times in the last 6 months, but luckily it never progressed to a search. He found it while cleaning out the car for a sale. I think he was surprised that I knew exactly what it was"
Never consent to a search. Ever.
A cop most likely will still ask whether he has PC or not because consent will always allow admission of evidence, whereas PC can be challenged.
There is absolutely no reason to consent. If the cop has PC, he is just trying to make it easier on himself. Don't do that. Cops are not your friends. Their only job is to find dirt on you. If you consent, you have lost all legal standing if something is found. Even if you have nothing to hide, you never know what may have been placed where they are searching, or if there is some weird law that makes something specific illegal.
Basically, not consenting cannot hurt. The worst case scenario is that they had PC anyways and the search was legal. But if you consent it doesn't matter, it's legal no matter what.
A cop most likely will still ask whether he has PC or not because consent will always allow admission of evidence, whereas PC can be challenged.
There is absolutely no reason to consent. If the cop has PC, he is just trying to make it easier on himself. Don't do that. Cops are not your friends. Their only job is to find dirt on you. If you consent, you have lost all legal standing if something is found. Even if you have nothing to hide, you never know what may have been placed where they are searching, or if there is some weird law that makes something specific illegal.
Basically, not consenting cannot hurt. The worst case scenario is that they had PC anyways and the search was legal. But if you consent it doesn't matter, it's legal no matter what.
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