Reload 30-30? How to increase your case life.

[Hummer70]

Went out and fire formed some cases this evening and things did not go as planned but still finished up right where I wanted them to be.

I loaded 30 gr 4895 in them and seated a 146 gr. FMJ bullet (measured .307 dia)seated way long and loaded them single shot so I had to force the lever shut to make absolutely sure the case head was snug up against the bolt and fired three rounds and came in and measured each round as I fired it.

The shoulders only moved forward .009 to .011". With Primer set backs on all three.

I decided to lube the cases (which is how the Brits proof barrels, one round dry and one round lubed) and I put grease on the case body and fired it. Shoulder moved forward .019". On the next round I put more grease on the case and shoulder went forward .021".

The amount of grease was definitely more than I put on cases to size them. If I had used that much grease in sizing anything there would be case dimples after sizing but the fired cases are beautiful.

I continued to lube the cases and after chamber got coated the rest of them moved . 021", .022" and .023" forward which is right where I wanted them.

There were no signs of higher pressure, no hard openings and no primer set backs. All the cases came out beautifully formed. I made absolutely sure the lever was contacting receiver before every shot.

I still have some 35 grain loads and I greased one round and shot it and it moved .022".

Thusly for the rest of the first 50 rounds they will be loaded and cases lubed to make sure the cases fit the chamber.

I might try 150 Sierras again for 10 and the 146 FMJ for the other 10 to make up the 50 fireformed cases all appropriately greased.

Thusly this is the cheapest way I could figure out to fireform cases to fill the whole chamber at one time.

Once I get all 50 fired that form the cases properly I will do a final reset of the FL die and see how it groups.

With this known if I find any factory loaded 30-30 ammo I will grease the cases on the first firing to get them fitted to the chamber properly.

 

[Hummer70]

Rifle now has 68 rounds on it since I have had it. I have fired 8 of them three times with the FL die backed off so it won't set back shoulder and I am running 30.6 gr. 4895 with 150 grain bullets but I cannot get the case shoulder to blow forward to touch the shoulder of the chamber !! ! ! !

For kicks I measured the distance from the RCBS shell holder to the bottom of the RCBS FL die in the full up position and it is .023".

I have fired 8 of the cases three times and one more firing I will stress relieve the neck/shoulders again and fire them another three times. I am going to keep loading these same 8 rounds to see how many reloads I can get on them.

I mounted a European style lower swivel today. I inletted the stock and set in a 1903A3 lower sling swivel on the right side of the stock. It is mounted about 2" below the buttplate so rifle can be carried muzzle down on right shoulder ready for a fast first shot. I shoot lefty so sling swivel is mounted on right side of buttstock. In this way you can walk through brush etc and not get the the rifle hung up on vines/limbs etc.

Since the rifle is only 36 5/8" long it is easy to hide under a poncho.

 

[jcwit]

Unfortunately, not possible. You NEED to FL size for leverguns. You can move them LESS... you cannot leave the case at the fired form. It just doesn't work.

It doesn't?

Funny, I've been doing this for 50 years with both 30/30 and 32 Winchester Special in Winchester 94's. When the cases become slightly hard to chamber I then full length size them. Normally takes 5 to 6 firings to reach this point. But then I've never loaded any cartridge at the max, usually mid range.

 

[Slamfire]

I decided to lube the cases (which is how the Brits proof barrels, one round dry and one round lubed) and I put grease on the case body and fired it. Shoulder moved forward .019". On the next round I put more grease on the case and shoulder went forward .021".

The amount of grease was definitely more than I put on cases to size them. If I had used that much grease in sizing anything there would be case dimples after sizing but the fired cases are beautiful.

I continued to lube the cases and after chamber got coated the rest of them moved . 021", .022" and .023" forward which is right where I wanted them.

There were no signs of higher pressure, no hard openings and no primer set backs. All the cases came out beautifully formed. I made absolutely sure the lever was contacting receiver before every shot.

Eh gads, you tested the theory that grease dangerously raises pressures instead of just reading about it. Most people simply rely on authority. How is it now that the black hole/ thermonuclear event prognostications of Hatcher’s Notebook did not happen? After all, according to Hatcher’s Notebook, greased rounds “dangerously raise pressures”.

I have been studying this for years, because for decades I have been shooting lubricated cases in my M1a’s. My case life is exceptional, I took one set 22 reloads in a M1a without a single case head separation.

Pictures of sectioned cases are below. If a case developed a body split or neck crack I sectioned it. R stands for the number of reloads to that point. The FAL cases with the head separations are from friends guns. FAL’s are hard on brass.






I have been researching the Army’s claims about grease dangerously raising pressures and the whole story is based on denial that the Army made structural weak rifles (single heat treat receivers) and defective ammunition. Given that the cartridges of the period copper fouled something awful, and shooters were greasing bullets to prevent that, whenever one of the structural deficient rifles let go, the Army chalked it up to grease and user error. The Army published data to prove it. Based on the historical use of grease in rifle and cannon rounds before and after 1921, the only thing I can think of that would give the histrionic results LTC Whelen published in 1921, and Hatcher used in his Notebook, is monkey business. The whole thing is a coverup. As a tester you know that the independence of the tester is critical for honest results. When the management chain is breathing down the neck of the tester, to exonerate the Boss and the Organization from the consequences of their incompetence, any tester that does not cough up the results his Boss and Organization needs, has dead ended his career. The pressure testers at Frankfort gave their Bosses what their Bosses wanted to hear.

As for the British greasing their rounds for proof testing, it makes sense if you want to load the mechanism to prove its strength. Yes, P.O Ackley showed that a dry case and dry chamber had enough friction that a locking mechanism was not loaded. If you are a proof house attesting to the quality of the products you stamp your name, a dry case/dry chamber test is not adequate if your reputation is on the line. That gun you proofed, if the ammunition got wet, and the action shattered, because it had never actually been loaded, would make your proof certification worthless.

I lubricate all my new cases when I fireform. I don’t want case head separations. When cases, such as my 300 H&H cases, are almost $2.00 each, I don’t want the first firing to ruin the case. So I paste waxed these cases and shot them. They shoot rather well lubricated, and I have a hunch that lubricated cases actually shoot more accurately than dry. My pie in the sky claim is based on action loading. Lubricated cases load the action consistently and without case binding. Dry cases change the friction in the system, because the chamber fouls, which changes the bolt loads, which should affect the dynamic situation.

Used to be a common practice with Bullseye pistol shooters to dribble oil over their 45 ACP cases. Made for a more consistent unlock, which would be important for accuracy in a tilt breech action.



The only concern I have with lubricated cases is too much head space at the start of fireforming. I don’t want peening based on excessive headspace. The whole bolt loading is after all, an impact load. Too much pressure and too much headspace might peen things, so for my 35 Whelen cases, I lubed them, and fired cast bullets loads to set the shoulder length.

Hey how about some pictures of your Texan? Sounds like you have done some neat modifications to the thing!. We all love pictures of pretty rifles, cough them up!

 

[R.W.Dale]

One way the 303british guys overcome dreaded case stretching particularly on that initial fireform is to slip an O ring over the case to force the case head firm against the breach face on firing.

What this does is causes the brass to stretch FORWARD to fireform to the chamber at the neck vs getting knocked forward by the firing pin and then stretching the body BACKWARDS causing thinning above the head.

For a lever gun you would still need to push the shoulder back slightly to provide adequate clearance to provide smooth operation and consistent lockup. But in the end you're working the brass much less and extending case life.

 

[ranger335v]

Like JC, I'm dissappointed to learn that necksizing for the old lever guns won't work. I started neck sizing my 336/.35R. about '75 and a buddy's 94/.30-30 a couple years later. Neither of us had any complaints, nor has a truck load of dead dear.

Well, okay, I actually did know magazine writers all say not to do it but I also know a lot of what I see in gun magazines is "common wisdom" BS. I load at book max for both rifles (to obtain best accuracy) but that's still a modest pressure. Since I started using Lee's collet neck die and annealing maybe every 5-6 reloads, our few boxes of cases last for at least a dozen cycles; we lose cases but they don't die! We've had no head seperations or signs of one, nor any chambering problems. This is all hunting ammo and I FL size so seldom I can't even say how often that is, maybe never?

 

[Hummer70]

Slamfire1, yep I have heard stories from the guy that trained me that he brought away from Springfield Armory as when he went there was like 1951 and there were lots of guys there including Garand etc that were there prior to the war.

There was a rival gun to the Garand and to get it to work right he gun crews soaked their overalls down with oil/grease and rubbed the cases up and down the leg prior to loading them in magazine.

They got caught doing this.

The was also a bullet problem I believe was cupro nickel plated ones that deposited jacket material heavily in barrel.

There was this Captain who was given the assignment to sell the M16 at all costs. He came to Aberdeen with is bucket of crap and they told him where to get off. You have probably seen the famous block wall being shot down with M16 right? What the film does not show is gunners with BARS and AP ammo on both sides shooting at same wall. The guy that trained me got that from the gunners who were doing the shooting.

the neck splits in the 7.62 cases intrigue me. I have been able to get 80 to 100 loadings on 7.62 fired in bolt guns.

You also won't see anything official about a number of GIs getting killed in Korea when M1 Carbines blew and put the bolts in the foreheads of the shooters. Guy that trained me got this from his brother who was there and put the bodies in body bags and he left the bolts in place. My buddy combed all the engneering files and could find nothing on it.

I am aware of another cover up on the M16 I can't go into as I will be a witness on that one. Deaths have occurred as well. Thusly I well know about coverups in the gov't. With me I can prove I didn't buckle under to pressure and did not cover up anything for anybody! ! ! ! ! As far as I am concerned integrity is more important than money.

I also know that Ruger got screwed on several gov't tests most from law enforcement agencies.

My rifle is anything but pretty. It has been carried to death but shot little. I might do the lower sling swivel thing to give an idea.

Did I mention I am cleaning the Texan with Grease?

One that that will destroy brass in one firing is shooting in the rain. If the ammo is soaked the case head can't get a grip on the bolt face, the head will flow outwards and your primer pockets are gone. I once got caught in a alibi string at Camp Perry in a driving rain storm. I shot my string and got up and left all the brass laying there as I knew it was ruined. Obviously I am making sure no grease is on case head.

 

[Slamfire]

There was this Captain who was given the assignment to sell the M16 at all costs. He came to Aberdeen with is bucket of crap and they told him where to get off. You have probably seen the famous block wall being shot down with M16 right? What the film does not show is gunners with BARS and AP ammo on both sides shooting at same wall. The guy that trained me got that from the gunners who were doing the shooting.

Have never seen this, hope that when I do, I shall remember.

I have gotten to the opinion that the military exists to serve the industrial complex. National Defense is sort of an excuse for a huge cash flow to happy contractors. The smart Program Manager knows who butters the bread on Capitol Hill.

the neck splits in the 7.62 cases intrigue me. I have been able to get 80 to 100 loadings on 7.62 fired in bolt guns.

I don’t know why I get neck splits. The brass is old brass, once fired given to me, I just expect some case neck splits early on. I don’t anneal the case necks, not worth the bother.

You also won't see anything official about a number of GIs getting killed in Korea when M1 Carbines blew and put the bolts in the foreheads of the shooters. Guy that trained me got this from his brother who was there and put the bodies in body bags and he left the bolts in place. My buddy combed all the engneering files and could find nothing on it.

A Major Bud of mine lead an ambush in Vietnam. One of his men, “Private Gung Ho” insisted on carrying an M1 Carbine. Major Bud could not convince Private Gung Ho to carry anything else. Down the path comes a VC carrying a rifle. Private Gung Ho jumps out and points his M1 carbine at the VC, pulls the trigger, and in the words of Major Bud, the carbine blows up! Obviously no one is going to conduct a FRACAS report on the spot so the specifics are lost to history. However, neither Private Gung Ho or the VC were hurt/shot!. Due to the whole suddenness of the event, and maybe he realizes the best thing to do is not appear threatening, the VC stays cemented in place, but Private Gung Ho pulls a Gerber dagger and proceeds to knock the VC down and stab him to death. Apparently it was a horrible scene. It was at this point of the narrative that Major Bud grimaced and stopped talking.

One that that will destroy brass in one firing is shooting in the rain. If the ammo is soaked the case head can't get a grip on the bolt face, the head will flow outwards and your primer pockets are gone. I once got caught in a alibi string at Camp Perry in a driving rain storm. I shot my string and got up and left all the brass laying there as I knew it was ruined. Obviously I am making sure no grease is on case head.

I don’t want to hi-jack this thread any further on the grease, but as long as my loads are within “SAAMI” specs, I don’t worry about grease or rain on the case body or bullet. If someone were to plug up the bore with grease that is a different matter, but if the round chambers, never had a pressure problem.