Reloading .41 Magnum

[caz223]

*scratches head*
I have 300 or so REM cases I've loaded way too many times with no problems.
They have been annealed once. Lost/damaged 80 or so, still haven't seen any splits.
They all weigh almost exactly the same.
I loaded those 300 pieces of brass from '95 until '03 with no problems.
I shot at very least 50 rounds a week. Yeah, that brass got used a LOT.
I have since bought 1000 or so starline, and have retired my REM brass.
This was a long time ago, rem quality may have changed, but in my mind my REM brass served me well.
I still second the starline recommendation, since it is the best brass for the money.
Now, PMC brass is junk......

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Caz223:

I had so much trouble with remington pistol brass in 357, 41, AND 44 that about 2 years ago I threw out about 1500 bucks worth of it. Haven't looked back until my wife bought me a 357 Maximum blackhawk. Remington is the ONLY brass supplier currently.

What do you know? Trouble right out of the gate. Have a thread going on it here and over on TFL. So is fellow forum member Peter M. Eick

If it's worked for you great. As for me, I wouldn't take it if it was given to me NIB. I'd sell it for scrap value.

 

[joeoim]

I have some Remington that I've reloaded 3 times now and it hasn't caused a problem as yet. I bought 500 rds of Starline a couple months ago so I don't have to use it (rem).

I need to trim this Starline to length yet. What do you guys trim to? I will look tonight and see what I used (100 trimed so far). I checked about a dozen and figured the length as my book didn't give a minium length.

Joe

 

[caz223]

I have never needed to trim pistol brass, but again, I'm prolly the exception, as I have so much brass in so many calibers that the brass I have now should last me a lifetime.
I now buy it in lots of 1000 at least, and I don't have to bother with it, as I have enough brass in my brass pool as to not place undue stress on it.

The REM brass I got in .41 may have been an exception, as is was prolly produced a long time ago.
I bought remington .41 magnum ammo from a local store, and the boxes were from the same lot, and very dusty when I got them.
This was the source of my brass.
No doubt sitting on the shelf for quite a few years.
I'd go with starline, it sounds like you got it under control.
I have quite a bit of .357 mag remington brass scrounged from UMC ammo, and it's nowhere near as consistant as my .41 mag brass was.
Matter of fact, I no longer buy UMC ammo, as I am scared to death of core/jacket separating in the barrel.
I am friends with a local police instructor/ccw class instructor, and he has shown me numerous examples of UMC .38/.357 ammo shedding it's jacket in the barrel, and the next bullet hits the jacket, and................
I have a case of magtech ammo left, after that I don't know where to get factory .357 ammo.
I had a source of new magtech ammo cheaper than I could load it, but my source dried up.....
I may have to load it. *sigh*
I really didn't want to have to buy starline brass in .357 mag, but it looks like the wind is blowing that way.

 

[joeoim]

I have always trimmed so I could get a consistant crimp.

I see I have trimed all my Remington, Winchester, and Federal brass to 1.27 and my manual shows a case length of 1.29. I have trimmed 350 of the mixed brass and 100 of the new starline to this length. I get a case now and then that the trimmer just touches without removing anything.

I've reloaded thousands of 38s and 357s (since 1984) so I haven't bought but a few boxes, and never UMC, so thanks for that info on it. I'll steer clear of it. You never know when you'll be away from home and have to hunt some up.

Ben
Check Midway. They have Starline in 357, both nickel and brass, and Winchester in their October flyer.

Sorry Ben, I reread your post and see you were looking for 357 MAXIMUM.
Joe

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Cazz223:

After mulling it over for the last few days: I've had similar experience. I had some older(early 80's) 357mag remington nickled brass given to me(no idea how many times it was loaded previously) that I loaded over a dozen times before the plating started to flake. But ALL the remington brass I bought(1992 and later) gave me trouble.

Just started in on the 357 maximum stuff a couple months ago and *poof* trouble again.

In the thousands of pieces of winchester pistol brass I've bought, I had exactly 1 bad case out of the package. It was a 44 mag with a case head that wasn't fully formed.

 

[caz223]

I have since just bought new starline instead of scrounging, or buying ammo to get brass (Except for 9mm, and for a time, 357SIG.).
In auto calibers, winchester (PreS&B) is now my first choice.
I use win brass, sorted by headstamp exclusively in 9mm and .40, and have a few thousand in 357SIG before I got 5000+ starline cases cheap, for no other reason than to have them.
9mm and .40 are everywhere, I refuse to buy starline brass in either of those calibers when you can literally buy WIN white box loaded 9mm ammo for the price of starline brass.
Or pick it up by the pound at the local range.
357SIG is different in my area, for some reason.
WIN is the only scrounged brass I trust in the sig, I've had real bad luck with the other brands.
With 9 and .40 it's just more of a consistancy thing.

 

[caz223]

Man, that's a bad deal.
Funny they should make .414 SM, .445 SM, 360DW, and 10mm mag, but not .357 R-max.
Maybe call them and ask why?
In my mind .414 is WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more obscure than .357 R-max.
I would have just reamed a cylinder out to .356GNR, and bought new dies, but that's just me....

 

[joeoim]

I had a pound of Lill'Gun picked up so any experiences anyone has had with Lill'Gun and 210 gr XTP or Remington SJSP would be greatly appreciated. I lean a little more to the accuracy than the heavy.

Ben
I don't have a chrono so I find a load that my gun likes either within published limits.

By the way what are you guys crimping with? I've always just used the RCBS.

Joe

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Redding *profile crimp* die. Tried the lee*factory crimp* as well. In straightwall ammo that spaces off the rim and not the mouth, the redding die has been proven the winner easily.

It starts with a taper crimp, then finishes with a very nice roll crimp.

HIGHLY RECCOMEND IT. It cost as much as my whole carbide RCBS die set, but it was money well spent.

 

[Hobie]

I have not had any trouble with any of my .357 Maximum brass of varying vintage. I have about 800 pieces. I've yet to throw one out because of the brass but I have trashed a couple because I did things to them such as necking to .221 fireball shape without annealing (got a few wrinkles).

 

[caz223]

While I love redding dies, and think they are the best dies out there-bar none, I don't think they are necessary for the .41 magnum. Let me explain.
The two things redding has improved on are bullet seating and crimping.
Seating: the competition seater is head and shoulders above the rest in concentric seating. However, the bullet will be going through a forcing cone on a revolver, and the forcing cone 're-aligns' the bullet to the bore, making the comp seater un-necessary. Save it for small auto calibers.
Profile crimp dies: Upon examination, these are the most precise tools to apply crimp I have ever seen.
However, I haven't seen any benefit from using them, since I have been crimping 'enough' for the powder I'm using.
Almost any crimp die will do the job, specialty tools aren't necessary.
Save the specialty tools for .40 and 357SIG.
On the flipside, the profile crimp dies run between 15 and 20 bucks and can't really hurt anything. It's your money.
Competition seater dies run between 55 and 75 bucks. I have several.

 

[joeoim]

I noticed these RCBS carbide dies don't seem to be the same quality they were when I last bought any. That was when they passed that brady bill in "93" I think. I will mull this over and may invest in a Reddind crimp die later.

Caz223 I suspect you hunt with the .41 mag. What experences have you had with the Hornady XTP. and SJFP in 210 gr and less. I loaded a bunch of 38s with XTP when they first came out and was dissappointed in them. I was loading +P and didn't think at the time that they had enough velocity to open right. Anyway I didn't buy any more. I have been useing them in this 41 thinking they will do better.

Ben, have you hunted with your .41?

Joe

 

[caz223]

I haven't used the .41 for hunting, but I would think it's up to the task.
The XTPs are excellent game bullets, they penetrate, hold together, open up a little, and exit, where possible.
I have used them on furry critters, (But not game animals.) and their performance is best at 1350+, as you would expect.
The most important part is accuracy, and they have demonstrated to me that they are up to the task, if you are.
I'd use them for woods cruising without reservations.
Remingtons haven't impressed me, for some reason. Maybe they should. Dunno.
All I know is I shot remington factory loads, and I immediately shot better after I started handloading (Using XTPs, noslers, and sierras.)
Man, I just love .41 mag. Maybe it's what it does to a 'swinger' target.
Be careful, hit the swinger in the wrong spot, and you'll be buying a new one.....

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Joeoim: Haven't harvested anything yet(big game wise) with my 41's. But gonna try again this weekend(Utah deer hunt). Have done several informal non scientific penetration/velocity tests with the 210 XTP. Good bullet in my opinion. In fact if they'd make it in a 230 grain version for 41, I'd say perfect hunting bullet.

As already noted for the XTPs, preformance is best above 1350, in fact that seems to be the magic speed as far as when they start mushrooming consistently. Hornady says IIRC that they work clear down at 1,000. While I have no doubt they have enough energy/penetration at that speed, they won't open up under less than ideal conditions when going that slow. On the upper end? I've found that regardless of caliber or weight about 1700 they start coming apart. The exception being the 125 grain 357XTP. It blows up at 1500. The rest I've played with have enough mass to hold together to either 1700 or as fast as my guns will safely go. Run them between those 2 velocities(1350ish and 1700), and you have an excellent hunting bullet. Good slug to develop a load that will get used in your 6" wheelgun or your 20" barreled levergun interchangebly.

Caz223:
With the profile crimps *dual crimp?* action I find that the addition of that first stage taper crimp lets me use slightly less roll crimp to achieve the correct amount of bullet pull for proper powder ignition. This gives me longer case life by an average of 5 or 6 more reloads before the case mouths split.

Given the current price of brass I consider those dies free money.

 

[caz223]

*shrug*
I have yet to have to trim my .41 cases, or have any splits.
This is after some high mileage, so I'd say my case life isn't too bad.
Accuracy isn't bad, either.
I'm right where I need to be without the profile crimp dies.
Nothing against any die maker, but did you know that lee dies do the same thing??
I don't think that any special equipment or any 'tricks' are needed to load .41 mag, just common sense, and good components. Sort of a 'back to the basics' approach.
That's one of the reasons I like the round so much.
By talking to ya, it sure sounds like we got a lot more in common than not, and I wish you well in your hunt. Let me know if you have any luck, maybe some pics?

 

[joeoim]

Caz223 & Ben
Thanks for the enlightenment and personal experience. I am intrigued with the Redding *profile crimp* die. Although it may be more sophisticated than I need at the moment I may find I can benefit from it also.

Caz don't you get a tighter crimp on some cases since you don't trim?

I've used the Remington bullets, 158gr SJHP & JSP in my 38s and 357s with good results but I'm thinking the XTP may serve me better in the .41 if I can get it to open up a little. My experience has been that a hollow point does a "little" better job killing than a soft point in a head shot, but I want something that will break bone if I can't get a good head shot or shoot in self defense. The Federal 210gr Power Shock @ 1300 fps/muzzle have considerable more recoil than my 210 XTP loaded to published max out of my 4" S&W. I don't crave recoil, and I don't download for plinking. I like to have one load. I may have to compromise with the XTP, or stay with a jacketed flat point.

Ben, with any luck maybe you can give us some more performance reports on the XTP next week. Looks like you will need to take your wool and rubber clothing.

I loaded 100 with 21.0gr lillgun and 100 with 21.5 lillgun. 210gr XTP. starline brass, cci 350 magnum primers. 21.9 is supposed to give 1377 fps, according to handloads.com. I may load a few to that to see how they expand.

I have a couple days off so will let you know how they shoot.

Joe

 

[CZ57]

AA#7, Blue Dot, H-110, W-296, 2400, N110, L'il Gun, any of these will work well with one load or another, but the best powder I've used for .41 Magnum is AA#9. It will push the 170s as fast or faster than anything and do it with exceptional accuracy. With 210/220 gr. Jacketed bullets, accuracy can be phenominal.

 

[41 Redhawk]

CZ57 beat me to it. I have found AA#9 to be the best powder going in my 41. I use 18grs with Hornaday's 210 gr XTP and a 230gr Keith cast bullet. works great for me!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

41Redhawk, any chrono data to share? Very curious.

I know how much blue dot and 2400 it takes to push that slug to 1500 in my redhawks.

So, I'm wondering how fast your load runs?

 

[41 Redhawk]

Ben,

The 230 gr cast goes 1410fps with 18grs of #9. With 2400, 19grs gives me 1417fps. 16grs of blue dot gives me 1421fps.

The 210XTP goes 1405 with 18grs of #9. With blue dot 16grs gives me about the same speed.

According to my manuals, both those blue dot loads are a bit over max.

In my Redhawk #9 gives me better groups both with a 5.5" I used to own and the 7.5" I now own.

 

[joeoim]

41Redhawk,

I'm curious if you use a carbine, or how these would chrono out of a 16.5 or 20" barrel?

Joe

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Joeoim: As a *general* rule an inch of barrel is worth about 50 fps. I've found this to be the case with my 357 and 44 winchester 94's. Even factoring in no cylinder gap, the individual barrels can make quite a difference.

But like I said *generally* an inch equals 50 fps. So if 6" gives you 1400, then a 20" should be close to 2100.

If you're wondering:

Yes, a hot 44 out of a rifle is a whole different animal than when it's launched out of a 6" tube.

I have a 24" barreled 357 rifle. It has been safely loaded with some 158 grain loads that exceed factory 150 grain 30-30 loads in velocity and energy. Still doesn't shoot as flat as the 30-30 due to the slugs poor B.C. But it does indeed have more velocity and energy than some factory 30-30 rounds. Not bad for a little 'ol pistol round, eh?

41 Redhawk- Thanks for the numbers.

 

[41 Redhawk]

I don't have a carbine so i don't have any numbers. The barrel on my current Redhawk is 7.5". I never had the 5.5 and the 7.5 out on the same day shooting that same loads but my notes seem to indicate the actually shot everything at about the same speed.

Ben, how do those numbers compare with what you get?

 

[Ben Shepherd]

All my current 41 hawks are 7.5". So no idea in diff between barrel length in this caliber. BUT:

In both 357 and 44 magnum I've run everything from 3" to 10.5" pistols, and 16-24" rifles, and the above mentioned 50ft/inch rule seems to hold true(roughly). Seeing how the 41 uses the same or similar powders, I can't see it being any different.

Want to know what gun is on my short list? Yep, a marlin 41mag levergun. Have 357 and 44 covered with win 94's, so I need a 41 to balance things out. Used to have access to one, then it got sold, I didn't buy it because I kept hoping winchester would do 41 in the model 94.:banghead: Oh well- shoulda, woulda, coulda I guess.