Reloading Confused

Status
Not open for further replies.
I, have heard many times, read the manuals and you will learn. I have read and looked at some of the manuals. They are all different. For instance, take a starting load. One will say 12.7 grans of a powder and another will say 15.3. Can any one tell us beginners how to do what we need to do? Thank You for helping.
Extrapolating to watches, the man who has a watch knows what time it is. The man who has two is never sure. ;)

Sometimes manuals contain data related to different batches of the same powder (but never tell which one). Once you have the powder at home check the most recent powder manufacturer load for the cartridge you plan to reload and attain to it. Never start by maximum loads. And prepare a good log (an excel sheet in my case) to document all you reload.

To complement all this, you can observe shooters in your range with the same cartridges. Ask them about their recipe. Be careful as people can be mistaken when talking about their loads. Observe their primers. The same with commercial ammunition. You can always measure the speed of the commercial ammunition and to compare with that of yours.

Good luck and please be prudent!
 
I started out reading the manuals for technique and process, however I always go straight to the powder manufacturer for current year load data. or the load data for the year I bought the powder in question. Either way, not a bad way to go about it, if your goal is being safe.
 
If you're on icy roads with a 84,000lb 18wheeler in heavy traffic

Then you are overweight. Max weight for a typical 18-wheeler is 80,000lb.

I don't know why you are trying to equate handloading to driving a big truck... it's apples to lugnuts.

..and I'll take my cabover International with a Cummins N14 over some nasty Pete anyday...

ibAj6FHl.jpg
 
Then you are overweight. Max weight for a typical 18-wheeler is 80,000lb.

Max in KS is 85,000 for 5 axles if we stay off Interstate.

It's called an analogy - if a guy is running a cartridge for which standard data will be far below the limits of their firearm, such as the 45-70 and the Marlin 1895 I referenced above, there's very little risk in running right up to max loads (no risk, in fact, as they can turn the page in most manuals and find an entirely new gear). Kinda like the risk of stopping short on an empty road in a Honda Civic... Low risk of slipping past the intersection, causing damage by going a little over your target. Alternatively, running up against max load in 300RUM is a bit more risky, relatively akin to driving on ice with 84,000lbs pushing your truck up the tailpipe of the last car in line... One needs to be approached with more caution than the other... Most folks can relate to driving on dry vs. wet roads, and can understand the difference between stopping distance for a Honda Civic vs. a 18 wheeler, even if they've never shifted a 2 stick themselves...
 
Last edited:
All Reloaders are a bit obsessive compulsive about their process,

Well, the ones not called "Lefty" ;)

Then you are overweight. Max weight for a typical 18-wheeler is 80,000lb.

The grain trucks around here average about 84,000, even though 80 is the max. They just run, and pay the fine if pulled over-they are pretty good at dodging scales, it's the vans with the portables that do get them when they do.Usually during harvest they don't even bother stopping them. I used to weigh the trucks in at the mill when they unloaded.
 
Varminterror just proved my point on how differently some people approach reloading. He is clearly reserved in what data he uses by using data only for that particular bullet, which is admittedly best, but sometimes a bullet is not listed anywhere. You heard about Whizbang Doomaflotchie and somehow aquired a box in the correct caliber for whatever you are loading...do you sit and wait for data as some folks do, or do you know that this bullet is nearly identical to the one Hornady makes. Your calipers tell you it’s the same, all of the specs are the same, it’s just got a square hollow tip rather than round. Do you load based on Hornady data (starting light working up etc) or do you wait for data that specifically lists that fancy new bullet from Whizbang?

I addressed this in my post, specifically.

I’d never suggest the published data is the only data, but for the new reloader, it should be.

I’ve loaded a lot of wildcats, many of which my base data used for extrapolation wasn’t even for the same parent case.... just a similar case capacity, bullet weight, and target MAP.

New reloaders are learning how to ride a bike while wearing roller skates - asking them to play the trombone at the same time doesn’t make sense. Newbies should stick to known combinations until they’re versed enough to know how to assess bullets. When a newbie can’t properly pronounce “ogive,” they don’t have much business trailblazing...
 
To add: regardless of book you use, when getting within, say .6 grains of their max load, look at cartridges verry closely. If you see a partial moon indentation, you are at critical. Would advise studying all you can about detecting pressure signs-and there are several...seriously.

This seems a current approach. "I loaded it up till I had to take a Stilson wrench to the bolt, then backed off half a grain."

Back when pressure test equipment was expensive, even for a bullet company, the Speer load development procedure was to increase the load until they got ONE clear "pressure sign" of the several known, then reduced by 6% and listed that as Maximum.

I know a Master class Long Range shooter who considerably overloads in a search for the least windage possible, then complains about short brass life.
There was one wildcatter who was thought kind of wild and crazy but if you followed his instructions for his blown out cases, you would get minimum ten loads out of a case. One prominent gunzine writer now thinks five is enough.
 
This seems a current approach. "I loaded it up till I had to take a Stilson wrench to the bolt, then backed off half a grain."

Back when pressure test equipment was expensive, even for a bullet company, the Speer load development procedure was to increase the load until they got ONE clear "pressure sign" of the several known, then reduced by 6% and listed that as Maximum.

I know a Master class Long Range shooter who considerably overloads in a search for the least windage possible, then complains about short brass life.
There was one wildcatter who was thought kind of wild and crazy but if you followed his instructions for his blown out cases, you would get minimum ten loads out of a case. One prominent gunzine writer now thinks five is enough.

My gunsmith does that as well. What I am getting at is that manuals give a supposed SAMMI limit. One should, of course, work up to that but if you see pressure signs during your ladder shoot that are below SAMMI or manufacturer limits, back off .6 to be safe and proceed from there. BTW: he has been replacing his barrels after 700 rounds. But them he builds rifles and gets them wholesale.

Working up rather than down has always been a given for me. Interesting experience that I had was finding one third MOA accuracy at 800 yards first time out with 28.8 grains Varget when everyone in my group have best groups starting at 30 grains.
 
Since your starting out be aware that OAL will affect pressure. The deeper a bullet is in the case the less space there is in the case, less space in the case = higher pressure with the same charge.
To give quick example going form a 9mm round with the QAL a 1.10 to 1.06 inccreased velocity about 50 fps. About the same as if I had increased the powder charge .1 or .2 gr on the 1.10 load.
.

I am new to reloading- coming up on 3 years and even though 3 years seems like a long time, it isn't very long in the reloading world. I learn something just about every time I log on here. This isn't something that you can read in a book or books and go "A-ha! I get it". It takes dedicated time, effort, research, trial and error and so much more.

This info quoted above that @Dudedog touched on was finally what started to pull all of this together for me personally. I have asked so many questions here. Sometimes asking the same question again if for no other reason than I didn't understand the answers I was getting. There is so much great information here and everyone is more than willing to help, encourage and explain, in my case, repeatedly!
Although I was confident that I wasn't going to blow myself up I still didn't completely understand as much as I knew I should. The OAL explanation I received really connected the dots. I was putting way too much emphasis on some things while although safe, not enough on others. (potentially unsafe)

My advise as a newer re-loader to a new re-loader would be to read everything you can, read it again and ask as many questions as you feel you need to understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. Start slow, stick to components you can find published data on. Don't be in a hurry, that's how mistakes are made.

If someone tells you they use the exact same components you are loading, DO NOT automatically think that is the right load data and begin to load thinking you are good. Always check it for yourself with published data. No one here would every give bad or dangerous advice but keys get fat fingered, notes written wrong or just plain typos. Just because it works for them, does not always mean it will work exactly the same for you. Base it on your own test and loading logs and notes. Comparison is great. As a matter of fact, about a year ago @Dudedog and I were comparing notes on a specific powder and we had way different numbers. I mean WAY different.

We all do the same things, we all also do them very differently. Read and ask. Take a bits of info from all of us here that sounds right to you, compare it to what you know and what people you trust tell you.
Welcome to this crazy world. I think you will like it here.
 
Agreed, when a guy gets close to the edge, care needs to be taken.

But I don't like to throw out generalizations for "how close is close?" because not all cases and not all powders are the same. So this is an area where I encourage new reloaders to really understand their cartridges and be aware of the implications of what they're doing before they take on solo reloading.

To elaborate for the new reloaders via a few examples: in small case cartridges like 221FB, we only have about 1.5grn span between starting and max loads. Each .1grn is a pretty sizable percentage of the spread. For small case pistol cartridges, the starting-to-max spread might only be 0.8-1.0grn. So for small cases, 0.6grn margin is way too much. Alternatively, when I'm loading 300RUM or Wby, let alone 338 Edge or Lapua, there might be 6 grains from min to max, I might need to start looking for pressure signs more than a full grain below max. And of course, to further complicate things, there are a LOT of older cartridges which have incredibly conservative pressure standards compared to the ability of modern firearms - as examples, someone reloading 45-70 for the Marlin 1895 or a 45colt for a Ruger Redhawk have a LOT of room in the capacity of their firearms and can press up against maximum manual data with much less concern than someone loading 300WSM or 454Casull. I think about approaching a stoplight - if you're on dry roads in a lightweight car with no other traffic, slamming on the brakes right before the light isn't very risky. If you're on icy roads with a 84,000lb 18wheeler in heavy traffic, a guy needs to start braking much earlier before the light. A reloader just needs to realize whether they're driving a Honda Civic or a Peterbilt.


When I started out, I read everything I could, cover to cover. Fascinating. Understanding terms, mechanics, methods, cautions, etc. kept me from getting started as soon as I wanted but being impetuous as it relates to reloading is a dangerous proposition.

I guess the best advice to the novice is to read a couple of books, then return with questions. A simple reply invites.

Amazed re: narrow load window for the Fireball. Do you use a high end scale to get down to three digit readings? Or perhaps I should just ask what scale you do use.
 
Just because it works for them, does not always mean it will work exactly the same for you. Base it on your own test and loading logs and notes. Comparison is great. As a matter of fact, about a year ago @Dudedog and I were comparing notes on a specific powder and we had way different numbers. I mean WAY different.

.

A good example is the loads i build for my 7mm Remington. It has a very long leade length from the factory (Remmies are known for it, apparently), and as a result, my OAL's are .140" over SAAMI max and my powder charges are right at listed maximums for my powder. In my rifle, this gives me 3000fps and sub-MOA accuracy with ZERO pressure signs. My primers are pristine.

If i were to try the same load in my wife's Browning A-bolt, it would probably be a recipe for a very bad day.
 
Amazed re: narrow load window for the Fireball. Do you use a high end scale to get down to three digit readings? Or perhaps I should just ask what scale you do use.

I didn’t intend to worry any body about the precision of their reloading tools, just meant to point out why I don’t like to generically say “reloaders should watch out when they get 0.6grn from max,” because there are cartridges in which 0.6 is the whole gap...

It’s not so uncommon for small case cartridges to have very small charge weight spans, especially pistol cartridges. Most rifle cartridges will have more than 15grn of powder AND will typically tolerate 10-15% spread in charge weight, so generally the smallest span is somewhere 1.5grn, or more. But there are some with less spread... Pistol cartridges are TINY, so their charges are small, and even a 15% reduction is a tiny spread. I know several powders for .380acp only have .5-.7grn span from starting to max. Some powders in .32acp are only .2grn difference from min to max (2.1-2.3grn). With the equipment most guys have, there’s no difference between a starting load and max load in that case - even some balance beams (Lee Safety or RCBS 505/1010) aren’t precise enough to go any better than +/- 0.1grain, and the standard... So a 2.1grn starting load might be 2.2, and a 2.3 max load might be 2.2 also... Even some loads in the ubiquitous 9mm Luger have spreads of less than 1grn.

I say all of that because I will answer your other question regarding which gear I use, but I don’t at all mean to make you think you need to run out and buy a $4,000 analytical balance just to load 380acp...

I have a Mettler Toledo MS603TS analytical balance which I use for some precision loading, but most of my loading is done with a pair of Chargemasters, a Hornady AutoCharge, or powder drops of various brands, and all of those digital and drops are confirmed on the RCBS 505 balance beam (except the Mettler). The Mettler Toledo I have will do +/- 0.015grn, literally more precise than the weight of a kernel for most powders... overkill for reloading, but I own the device, so I use it. Any reloader with a 505, Chargemaster, and/or Uniflow - or even the Lee scoop set - will be fine reloading even small cases. Just be consistent in your methods and watch for pressure signs in your reloads.
 
The range from handbook "starting load" to "maximum" is really pretty simple.
The most common reduction from maximum to starting is 10% of the maximum load.
10% of 5 grains in a pistol is half a grain. 10% of 50 grains in a rifle is 5 grains.
Small case, small powder charge, small "window."
 
Good information and advice in this thread.
Information/data in any manual is developed by the publisher of the manual reflecting what they found testing with their equipment in their test platform (chamber/barrel etc. etc.). The information published is developed with the knowledge that the “tester” can, in no way know what firearm the load(s) will be fired in. Consequently “we” can make an assumption that data will be safe to use in most (if not all) firearms that fall within the parameters of the SAAMI guidelines. Does this mean that we can take the manual maximum load and just use it? NO absolutely not! We still MUST start low and work up for safety reasons! Just as you are different from every other human on earth, so is every firearm different from all others and so when it comes to developing a safe, effective load, we need to know the particulars of the firearm we have, including (but not limited to) the internal dimensions of the chamber, barrel, twist rate, barrel length and the list goes on. Manuals simply give us a good place to start. Have fun!
 
I usually check more than one source for data. Mostly I'll start at the lowest starting load but I'm comfortable exceeding the max load in the book with the lowest max load. That is, if I don't encounter pressure signs. As others have said, the differences that you are seeing may be different bullets and different firearms..
 
IMHO,

There is a comparatively large difference in load data for the same powder, bullet, and twist from manual to manual and powder website to powder website.

As stated above, stick to one manual or powder website, as a beginner. To do otherwise is going to cause a great deal of anxiety from the time you load the first round to the time at the range when you pull the first trigger.

There are easily 20+ variables that need to be taken into account. Don't work on more than one thing at a time. If not, and you think you have solved a problem, or not, you will not know which thing you have worked on has worked or not worked. For example, sooner or later you will be fiddling around with seating depth and neck tension and which settings are best for your rifle for each. Do one thing at a time meaning get your best seating depth, keep that constant when then testing out neck tension. Don't do variables of both for the same loading session. Verify your results based upon similar conditions at the range. Don't expect the same results at 0 mph wind, constant wind, swirling wind and 25 mph wind, rain, snow or clear.

Have fun. This should be a pleasurable exercise and experience rather than a travail. Confusing as hell, yes. But doing it slowly will give you a brighter and brighter picture as you approach the end of the confusion tunnel. Remember, even the best of us makes mistakes and wastes time. I am at the bottom of the "skills" pile and recently dropped powder into 50 rounds in a tray without making sure each round was already primed.
This was discovered when I took the first round out of the loading tray to put on my shellholder to seat the round. Cleanup of the trail of spilled powder was then done and I started all over again after priming the 50 rounds.
 
I am new to reloading- coming up on 3 years and even though 3 years seems like a long time, it isn't very long in the reloading world. I learn something just about every time I log on here. This isn't something that you can read in a book or books and go "A-ha! I get it". It takes dedicated time, effort, research, trial and error and so much more.

Ain't it the truth!:)
 
Imagine how hard it would be to learn how to reload if there was no internet to rely on, with its forums, message boards, search engines, "experts" and what not.

Oh, wait...I guess it isn't that hard after all.
 
I should add that the first--the VERY first--item of reloading equipment I acquired was a Hornady reloading manual, at least a year before I acquired any reloading tools or components. I read every word on every page at least two or three times.

Believe it or not, pretty much everything you need to know is in that manual. Not the actual powder weights, primers and bullets used--it's in the pages BEFORE the loading tables begin.

It does takes time to read those pages. But, if one doesn't have the time to read that part of the manual, maybe one should ask themselves whether they have the time to do the actual reloading.
 
Thank You, WestKentucky for the invite for a lesson, however I live to far from you, I am in Canton, Ohio.
I am originally from Dayton, we were neighbors 25 years ago, now I reside in Texas. Keep loading our friend from the state that is round on both ends and hi in the middle. I suggest you pay attention to details in the manuals and possibly look up you tube videos that may specifically address this issue. You tube is a great free school of higher learning. I have gotten degrees, er uh lessons from fixing washers to reloading. Fun stuff to watch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top