I scanned both HB4269 and HB4349 and I didn't see anything specifically stating that reloading would be illegal. Perhaps the bills are vaguely written as to provide such interpretations. One curious thing that both bills stated in the listing of weapons was the Colt series of AR's. They listed Colt AR-15's and all imitations with exception of the Colt AR-15 Sporter H-Bar. I don't know what they mean by this. As far as the serialization of bullet and casing there are some far reaching ramifications. One in particular would be the effect on indoor and outdoor shooting ranges both public and private. Anyone could pick up serialized brass and salt crime scenes. Only a bullet imprinted with numbers would be beneficial to solving a case. The serial numbers would also have to be on a nationwide database to provide any real benefit. Anyway, I see it as an indirect attempt to drive manufacturers out of business and, or make commercial ammunition and reloading cost prohibitive.
Reloading May Be Banned
- Thread starter steve4102
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- Status
These are the states where (to date) this legislation has been introduced. I had a polite exchange of ideas with one of the ammunitionaccountability people. She was either idealistically naive or deft at hiding their true agenda. They intend to microstamp the inside of each case and the base of each bullet with a unique number stored in a database identifying the purchaser. I pointed out, (and sent her the picture of an impact bullet puller and a rat tailed file) the ease with which said plan could be defeated. La la la la la, no impact.
XD-40 Shooter
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
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- 912
I feel really sorry for you folks in the communist republic of Illinois. This is some really assanine legislation, a knee jerk reaction to mass public shootings that has zero impact on criminals. Do these idiots not realize that people can just go to Indiana and buy ammo, they would have no way of knowing. Also, are the criminals going to turn in their "unregistered ammo" as well?
If the communist's in Illinois want to try to confiscate ammo, how would they know what you have? Does Illinois keep ammo purchase records? Seems to me, they would need a warrant to enter your home and they would have NO probable cause to get a warrant. What a bunch of *****.
Thank god I live in Colorado, a "free" state with a bigtime gun lobby.
If the communist's in Illinois want to try to confiscate ammo, how would they know what you have? Does Illinois keep ammo purchase records? Seems to me, they would need a warrant to enter your home and they would have NO probable cause to get a warrant. What a bunch of *****.Thank god I live in Colorado, a "free" state with a bigtime gun lobby.
This is a very sensitive subject, so I hope I state this delicately:
Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech), Steven Phillip "Steve" Kazmierczak (Northern Illinois University), Charles Carl Roberts IV (Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, PA), Sulejman Talović (Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City), nor Robert Hawkins (Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE) would have cared if you tattoed ammo serial numbers on their butts.
These men had mental illnesses, and that fact was known by their communities, courts, and/or families. But no one got adequate help for them, or monitored to make sure they took their medication, or informed a responsible party when their conditions changed for the worse. Putting serial numbers on bullets will not get help for people who need it. Getting help for the mentally will will be the only way to stop large scale shootings in public places.
Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech), Steven Phillip "Steve" Kazmierczak (Northern Illinois University), Charles Carl Roberts IV (Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, PA), Sulejman Talović (Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City), nor Robert Hawkins (Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE) would have cared if you tattoed ammo serial numbers on their butts.
These men had mental illnesses, and that fact was known by their communities, courts, and/or families. But no one got adequate help for them, or monitored to make sure they took their medication, or informed a responsible party when their conditions changed for the worse. Putting serial numbers on bullets will not get help for people who need it. Getting help for the mentally will will be the only way to stop large scale shootings in public places.
cpttango30
Member
I emailed them and will provide my email and their response along with their break down of cost to us. I used 300 as a rough guess of an average. I believe that now the average is over 1000 rounds per house that ownes more than one firearm. I have replied back asking them to answer all the questions I posed? Notice that they shy away from answering questions about the legality of such laws.
Brett,
You’re right, the cost of ammunition would increase slightly, about .01 cents/round. See the attached document for details on how this would work. These seems like fairly small price, especially for such an important investigative lead.
In many states the ‘disposing’ provisions are being removed, and ammunition accountability supports that change. We feel that coded ammunition will be integrated slowly, much similar to how DNA databases were integrated.
I hope that helps answer your questions.
________________________________________
From: Brett [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Question about how this is going to be paid for?
Where is all the money going to come from to enact these laws? Let’s take California for example.
Population is 36,457,549 http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html
Gun Ownership is 90 gun per 100 people.
90% of is 36,457,549 = 32,811,794
So in California alone there is almost 33 million LEGAL firearms. This is not counting the millions of illegal firearms floating around San Diego, Los Angles, San Francisco, and many other cities in California. How are you going to take the ammunition away from the people for whom you know have firearms but they are not legal in any way shape or form? Are you going to go to all the street gangs and tell them to give it up or else?
Figure most people keep at least 300 rounds of ammunition on hand
That is 32811794.1*300= 9,843,538,230
Yes that is almost 10 BILLION rounds of ammunition.
How are you going to secure and transport 10 Billion rounds of ammunition? Who is paying the bill for this? Plus according to the US Constitution you cannot forcible remove my property from me without due compensation (Amendment IV). So now you have to pay me fair market value which you have just forced ammunition manufactures to raise the price of there for costing you even more money. Not only are you now in violation of Amendment II but you have also violated the following amendments. IV, V,VII.
How are you going to dispose of 10 billion rounds of ammunition that is just one state mind you? How are you going to secure this ammunition?
What if a person has no store bought ammunition? You do not know how much ammunition people have on have so there for you have no real idea how to deal with it.
Brett,
You’re right, the cost of ammunition would increase slightly, about .01 cents/round. See the attached document for details on how this would work. These seems like fairly small price, especially for such an important investigative lead.
In many states the ‘disposing’ provisions are being removed, and ammunition accountability supports that change. We feel that coded ammunition will be integrated slowly, much similar to how DNA databases were integrated.
I hope that helps answer your questions.
________________________________________
From: Brett [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Question about how this is going to be paid for?
Where is all the money going to come from to enact these laws? Let’s take California for example.
Population is 36,457,549 http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html
Gun Ownership is 90 gun per 100 people.
90% of is 36,457,549 = 32,811,794
So in California alone there is almost 33 million LEGAL firearms. This is not counting the millions of illegal firearms floating around San Diego, Los Angles, San Francisco, and many other cities in California. How are you going to take the ammunition away from the people for whom you know have firearms but they are not legal in any way shape or form? Are you going to go to all the street gangs and tell them to give it up or else?
Figure most people keep at least 300 rounds of ammunition on hand
That is 32811794.1*300= 9,843,538,230
Yes that is almost 10 BILLION rounds of ammunition.
How are you going to secure and transport 10 Billion rounds of ammunition? Who is paying the bill for this? Plus according to the US Constitution you cannot forcible remove my property from me without due compensation (Amendment IV). So now you have to pay me fair market value which you have just forced ammunition manufactures to raise the price of there for costing you even more money. Not only are you now in violation of Amendment II but you have also violated the following amendments. IV, V,VII.
How are you going to dispose of 10 billion rounds of ammunition that is just one state mind you? How are you going to secure this ammunition?
What if a person has no store bought ammunition? You do not know how much ammunition people have on have so there for you have no real idea how to deal with it.
ATAShooter
Member
ANTS, ... don't forget Charlie Whitman, A marine who went haywire from a tumor in his brain and Sniped off The Tower at Texas University... This legislation is useless,...
What they need to put money into is finding out why they insist on taking others out with them. I don't mean to sound cold, but if you want to snuff yourself out cause you hate life, be my guest. But leave the others alone. This taking a bunch of others with you is what I don't get.
What they need to put money into is finding out why they insist on taking others out with them. I don't mean to sound cold, but if you want to snuff yourself out cause you hate life, be my guest. But leave the others alone. This taking a bunch of others with you is what I don't get.
SamTuckerMTNMAN
Member
Been having a fairly one way discussion with a fellow from one of the organizations. He hasnt offered any sense yet. I got an auto reply and then request for more personal info and that was it.
Pawns, useful pawns....they dont even realize we would fight for their freedom as well. Do they really trust all power to 'authorities'?
st
Pawns, useful pawns....they dont even realize we would fight for their freedom as well. Do they really trust all power to 'authorities'?
st
Dustinthewind
Member
callgood,
Something interesting about your map and this legislation, it seems that most of those states go Democrat in the elections.
Something interesting about your map and this legislation, it seems that most of those states go Democrat in the elections.
cpttango30
Member
Ok my text is in blue Ammunition Accountability is in Red. These people make my brain hurt they are so stupid.
OK does Mexico have this requirement? No, the government cannot even find humans crossing the borders yet they are going to find ammunition? Where there is a will there is a way. What about port security? All sorts of items are smuggled into this country through our ports? What about all the people that hand load?
Last I checked, they must have reason to collect your DNA. Yes, and just recently a city in Florida was stopping people driving at a road block and forcing them to give DNA samples and submit to a search of their person and car because there was a killer on the loose. This was a blatant violation of civil rights and constitutional rights. How do I know that ever police officer that has access to that database will ONLY look up ammunition for criminals? How do I know that the police will not use this list to harass or violate my rights? What if a police officer’s has an altercations with my child and then my child get acquitted of the crime, now the police officer is mad so now he goes in and changes the numbers on my ammo so that they match a recent murder? What recourse do I have then?
Where in the constitution does it say that my property is the property of the government?
You fail to see my point in all this. You are wanting me to give up a freedom so you can feel safe, yet you are not any more safe after this than you were before this?
Do you not have to have a background check before buying a firearm? Yes, huh seems to me that criminals still get firearms without a federally mandated background check? Wow that really works no doesn’t it.
Nothing is illegal until you get caught doing it.
From: Ammunition Accountability [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 5:48 PM
To: 'Brett'
Subject: RE: Question about how this is going to be paid for?
The code would be placed on the base of the bullet. The attached document outlines test done by the California Department of Justice that prove the code would still be readable after the bullet was fired.
The criminal would really have no choice but to buy coded ammunition if that’s all that was available. If they happened to steal the ammunition, you can report it stolen in the database, giving law enforcement a general location for the criminal. Also, I want to stress that the technology simply provides law enforcement with a lead – a coded bullet doesn’t meet the evidence threshold to lock someone away. So, if your ammunition is stolen and you don’t report it and it is used in a crime, the police would likely contact you but otherwise would leave you alone.
Constitutionally, you are still allowed to buy, own, carry, and shoot guns and ammunition as you do now under the legislation. And when I referenced DNA databases, I was referencing how it is targeted to criminals – those who are convicted or arrested (depending on the state). And how they were implemented at first on the state and local level and then slowly became and interoperable federal system. Last I checked, they must have reason to collect your DNA. Likewise, police would need a reason to look up your ammunition.
We have worked with multiple Attorney General’s Offices to ensure that this legislation is constitutional. A lawsuit would simply uphold their issued opinions.
Please let me know if there are any additional questions I can answer.
________________________________________
From: Brett [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:50 AM
To: Ammunition Accountability'
Subject: RE: Question about how this is going to be paid for?
Where are you going to place this identification? If you place it on the ogive of the bullet it will be lost due to the bullet traveling down the barrel. If you place it on the base of the bullet the heat created by the burning powder coupled with the extreme pressure involved in firing a projectile will remove it.
Who is to say that a criminal will even follow this law? They do not adhere to the current gun control laws in place now? So why is adding more laws costing people billions of dollars going to fix anything? How about this why not get tougher on criminals? We spit drug dealers back out on the street like fries at a Burger King drive through window. We do the same with child molesters?
This makes about as much sense to me as banning children because there are child molesters out there!
So if a person breaks in to my home and steals ammunition I go to prison because of a crime I did not commit.
You did not answer the constitutional questions I asked either. How would you feel if some government thug came to your house and told you to hand over your TV because it gets channels the government does not think you need to have?
It s stuff like this that is destroying the United States of America. “We feel that coded ammunition will be integrated slowly, much similar to how DNA databases were integrated.” So you are ok with the police showing up on your door step and without a warrant or any probable cause forcing you to give your DNA so they can catalog it? Because I am not ok with that. We are a country “Founded by the people for the people”. We are a country of Free citizens not a country of servants. The government is here to serve the people NOT the other way around.
I will ask you to answer the questions about how you are going to do this without violating any of my constitutional rights?
OK does Mexico have this requirement? No, the government cannot even find humans crossing the borders yet they are going to find ammunition? Where there is a will there is a way. What about port security? All sorts of items are smuggled into this country through our ports? What about all the people that hand load?
Last I checked, they must have reason to collect your DNA. Yes, and just recently a city in Florida was stopping people driving at a road block and forcing them to give DNA samples and submit to a search of their person and car because there was a killer on the loose. This was a blatant violation of civil rights and constitutional rights. How do I know that ever police officer that has access to that database will ONLY look up ammunition for criminals? How do I know that the police will not use this list to harass or violate my rights? What if a police officer’s has an altercations with my child and then my child get acquitted of the crime, now the police officer is mad so now he goes in and changes the numbers on my ammo so that they match a recent murder? What recourse do I have then?
Where in the constitution does it say that my property is the property of the government?
You fail to see my point in all this. You are wanting me to give up a freedom so you can feel safe, yet you are not any more safe after this than you were before this?
Do you not have to have a background check before buying a firearm? Yes, huh seems to me that criminals still get firearms without a federally mandated background check? Wow that really works no doesn’t it.
Nothing is illegal until you get caught doing it.
From: Ammunition Accountability [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 5:48 PM
To: 'Brett'
Subject: RE: Question about how this is going to be paid for?
The code would be placed on the base of the bullet. The attached document outlines test done by the California Department of Justice that prove the code would still be readable after the bullet was fired.
The criminal would really have no choice but to buy coded ammunition if that’s all that was available. If they happened to steal the ammunition, you can report it stolen in the database, giving law enforcement a general location for the criminal. Also, I want to stress that the technology simply provides law enforcement with a lead – a coded bullet doesn’t meet the evidence threshold to lock someone away. So, if your ammunition is stolen and you don’t report it and it is used in a crime, the police would likely contact you but otherwise would leave you alone.
Constitutionally, you are still allowed to buy, own, carry, and shoot guns and ammunition as you do now under the legislation. And when I referenced DNA databases, I was referencing how it is targeted to criminals – those who are convicted or arrested (depending on the state). And how they were implemented at first on the state and local level and then slowly became and interoperable federal system. Last I checked, they must have reason to collect your DNA. Likewise, police would need a reason to look up your ammunition.
We have worked with multiple Attorney General’s Offices to ensure that this legislation is constitutional. A lawsuit would simply uphold their issued opinions.
Please let me know if there are any additional questions I can answer.
________________________________________
From: Brett [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:50 AM
To: Ammunition Accountability'
Subject: RE: Question about how this is going to be paid for?
Where are you going to place this identification? If you place it on the ogive of the bullet it will be lost due to the bullet traveling down the barrel. If you place it on the base of the bullet the heat created by the burning powder coupled with the extreme pressure involved in firing a projectile will remove it.
Who is to say that a criminal will even follow this law? They do not adhere to the current gun control laws in place now? So why is adding more laws costing people billions of dollars going to fix anything? How about this why not get tougher on criminals? We spit drug dealers back out on the street like fries at a Burger King drive through window. We do the same with child molesters?
This makes about as much sense to me as banning children because there are child molesters out there!
So if a person breaks in to my home and steals ammunition I go to prison because of a crime I did not commit.
You did not answer the constitutional questions I asked either. How would you feel if some government thug came to your house and told you to hand over your TV because it gets channels the government does not think you need to have?
It s stuff like this that is destroying the United States of America. “We feel that coded ammunition will be integrated slowly, much similar to how DNA databases were integrated.” So you are ok with the police showing up on your door step and without a warrant or any probable cause forcing you to give your DNA so they can catalog it? Because I am not ok with that. We are a country “Founded by the people for the people”. We are a country of Free citizens not a country of servants. The government is here to serve the people NOT the other way around.
I will ask you to answer the questions about how you are going to do this without violating any of my constitutional rights?
Last edited:
By the way and just some thoughts:
1. How many gun crimes are committed where no shots are fired.
2. How many gun crimes are committed where if shots are fired, the gun was a revolver.
3. How many gun related crimes have been committed where empty brass is found.
4. How many gun crimes have been committed where an empty case would have provided an important "investigative lead". Why would I use ammo registered to me. If I do, the cops already know with or without the case.
5. How many homicides and violent crimes are committed with a gun verus some other means.
6. How many homicides that are committed with a gun remain unsolved.
7. How exactly would an empty case provide an important "investigative lead". It's only circumstancial evidence anyway that by itself means nothing. Criminals will either steal ammo or buy it out of state. Cabelas, Midway, whoever.
Exactly how is this trash going to help. People in those 11 states need to get involved to stop this stuff. Stupid legislation passes all the time. They simply refuse to allow facts and reality to get in the way of a good argument.
1. How many gun crimes are committed where no shots are fired.
2. How many gun crimes are committed where if shots are fired, the gun was a revolver.
3. How many gun related crimes have been committed where empty brass is found.
4. How many gun crimes have been committed where an empty case would have provided an important "investigative lead". Why would I use ammo registered to me. If I do, the cops already know with or without the case.
5. How many homicides and violent crimes are committed with a gun verus some other means.
6. How many homicides that are committed with a gun remain unsolved.
7. How exactly would an empty case provide an important "investigative lead". It's only circumstancial evidence anyway that by itself means nothing. Criminals will either steal ammo or buy it out of state. Cabelas, Midway, whoever.
Exactly how is this trash going to help. People in those 11 states need to get involved to stop this stuff. Stupid legislation passes all the time. They simply refuse to allow facts and reality to get in the way of a good argument.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/c..._493418_1.html
excerpt
The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms today is calling on lawmakers in the states of Washington, Arizona, New York, Illinois, Hawaii and several other states to scrutinize legislation that would require ammunition coding, because it mandates a soul source monopoly for a Seattle-based company that owns the technology.Based on a story in the new edition of Gun Week, and a look at virtually identical legislation that has been introduced in several states, CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb said there are serious questions that need to be addressed about these measures, and the effort to pass them into law.
"Sponsors of bills that would require coding of cartridge casings and bullets in their respective states have neglected to mention that there is only one company in the country with the technology, and that company has been working with a 'hired-gun' consulting firm that offers its help to lawmakers drafting the legislation," Gottlieb said. "Essentially, you have state legislators working as promoters for a company called Ammunition Coding System, pushing measures in at least ten states that would mandate the use of this proprietary technology at the expense of gun owners.
"Even if the technology were licensed to various ammunition manufacturers," he continued, "it still puts one company in a monopoly position. On its own website, the company even acknowledges that legislation would be required to implement what many gun owners believe is a back-door gun registry, by forcing dealers to keep records on who purchases ammunition.
"Creating a technology, and applying for a patent while hiring a consulting firm to push legislation that requires this technology is horribly self-serving," Gottlieb added. "The fact that in every state these measures are being pushed, the sponsors are anti-gun lawmakers, simply adds to the suspicion.
"Giving one company a legislated monopoly in any other area would bring down a media firestorm," Gottlieb stated. "The government would never allow it. State senators, representatives or assemblymen who get involved with this effort should ask themselves just what it's worth to essentially be lobbyists for a monopoly."
excerpt
The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms today is calling on lawmakers in the states of Washington, Arizona, New York, Illinois, Hawaii and several other states to scrutinize legislation that would require ammunition coding, because it mandates a soul source monopoly for a Seattle-based company that owns the technology.Based on a story in the new edition of Gun Week, and a look at virtually identical legislation that has been introduced in several states, CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb said there are serious questions that need to be addressed about these measures, and the effort to pass them into law.
"Sponsors of bills that would require coding of cartridge casings and bullets in their respective states have neglected to mention that there is only one company in the country with the technology, and that company has been working with a 'hired-gun' consulting firm that offers its help to lawmakers drafting the legislation," Gottlieb said. "Essentially, you have state legislators working as promoters for a company called Ammunition Coding System, pushing measures in at least ten states that would mandate the use of this proprietary technology at the expense of gun owners.
"Even if the technology were licensed to various ammunition manufacturers," he continued, "it still puts one company in a monopoly position. On its own website, the company even acknowledges that legislation would be required to implement what many gun owners believe is a back-door gun registry, by forcing dealers to keep records on who purchases ammunition.
"Creating a technology, and applying for a patent while hiring a consulting firm to push legislation that requires this technology is horribly self-serving," Gottlieb added. "The fact that in every state these measures are being pushed, the sponsors are anti-gun lawmakers, simply adds to the suspicion.
"Giving one company a legislated monopoly in any other area would bring down a media firestorm," Gottlieb stated. "The government would never allow it. State senators, representatives or assemblymen who get involved with this effort should ask themselves just what it's worth to essentially be lobbyists for a monopoly."
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