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Reloads for sale

Discussion in 'Legal' started by chasgrips45, Jan 28, 2013.

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  1. chasgrips45

    chasgrips45 Member

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    Hi All Am I starting to notice private individuals selling reloads? I would be great , but the legal implications would be horrendous. I guess it would also be risky to shoot a reload that a new reloader made. Any other opinions?
     
  2. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Pretty much covers it; risky to sell them, and risky to shoot someone else's reloads.

    Don
     
  3. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    I would recommend against it for several reasons. For one, you're one double charge away from a lawsuit that would completely cripple you financially. But primarily, to sell reloads with ANY regularity, you will need either an 06 or 07 FFL and the business licenses, taxes (including ITAR, even if you don't plan to trade internationally) and liability insurance that are also required. If you want to have a friend buy loading components and come over and help you load, that's fine. But it's a very narrow line when you start selling you own loads for monetary gain.
     
  4. Reefinmike

    Reefinmike Member

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    I get requests weekly from people wanting to buy reloads, just this morning one of my brothers friends was begging me to pay $20 a box for some 380 and I had to say no. I would maybe consider helping out a friend, but It would have to be freshly loaded ammo that I set all the charged cases out on a loading block to be 10000% sure they all have the same powder charge. Im not just gonna grab a box out of a can of ammo i rolled up almost a year ago without extreme scrutiny. Im careful with my reloads, but if someone else is shooting them, you bet your butt id want everything to be perfect. just not worth the risk.
     
  5. silicosys4

    silicosys4 Member

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    I'll teach a friend to reload, and walk them through the steps with components that they have purchased, on my equipment, as long as its their hand on the handle. In no way will I accept liability for anything done for a favor in the spirit of friendship.
     
  6. 45lcshooter

    45lcshooter Member

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    If you read the law. It is illegal to reload your own ammo.

    So yes it would be illegal to sell it, unless you have a FFL as a Ammo Manufacture.
     
  7. sinbad339

    sinbad339 Member

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    ??? I'm confused
     
  8. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    I hope you'll elaborate. Seems like there are an awful lot of reloaders who openly talk about doing it and dozens of vendors who ship related items all over the country without being arrested.
     
  9. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    While it is definitely not illegal to reload ammunition, selling it to another probably requires a FFL. Someone correct if I'm wrong please.
     
  10. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Exactly which law is that?
     
  11. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    From the ATF's website:

     
  12. HighExpert

    HighExpert Member

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    This is where they can get you. The law says for profit or livelihood. So I should be able to load them at cost? The ATF told me no. If there is money or services received in the transaction at all it requires an FFl. So I asked, "Suppose I give them away?" They said it was not specifically prohibited, but they would "frown on the action". I don't have the time or the money to find out if they are serious.
     
  13. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    Remember that you don't need to make a profit to be "engaged in business." People go into business all the time and wind up not making money. It's not that they're not engaged in business; it's just that they're not doing it too well.
     
  14. slamfirev10

    slamfirev10 Member

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    i've done it this way too
     
  15. NormB

    NormB Member

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    "for the purpose of livelihood and profit."

    This is really specific. If your purpose is simply to sell enough reloads to buy components to make more and you are NOT "making a living" doing it or even trying to, then no license is needed.

    I've seen ATF opinion on this, but it's been years.

    This is a LOT like having a class 03 FFL for Curios and Relics. Yes, you CAN sell your guns for the purpose of acquiring more guns, NOT to make a living. That's why there are C&R FFL holders at gunshows all over America selling their guns. They're not doing it for livelihood or profit, they're selling to have the money to buy more guns. ATF approves of this explicitly.

    Guy I bought a Dillon RL550 press from a few years ago sold 9mm, 38 SPL and .45 acp out of his truck at the range (Ft. Meade, MRPC). He did it to buy more stuff to make more reloads. He bought an XL1050 press and REALLY cranked them out. He worked at NSA and no one ever mentioned this might be illegal.
     
  16. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    Not exactly. The statutory definition is at 18 USC 921(a)(21)(B), emphasis added:
    The operative concepts are (1) devoting time, attention and labor; (2) doing so regularly as a trade or business; and (3) intending to make money.

    "Livelihood" simply means:

    Nothing in the statutory definition of "engaged in the business" requires that it be one's only business or means of support. It could be a side business, a secondary business or one of several ways you have of bringing money into the household. What matters is that you're doing it regularly to make money. It doesn't matter what you're spending the money on. It doesn't matter if you're using the money you make from selling reloads to buy groceries or to buy more reloading components (thus freeing more money from other sources to buy groceries with).

    Looks like you need to find it, because you apparently badly misunderstand the law.
     
  17. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    That's all that really matters, only, as in without exception.
     
  18. NormB

    NormB Member

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    I respectfully disagree, counselor Ettin.

    "principal objective of livelihood and profit "

    is STILL the operative phrase here. All other terms of legal art being fungible, the common law concepts of "livelihood" and "profit" are fairly well outlined both in Federal Code (IRS at a minimum) and shouldn't be in conflict with ATF regulation.

    I'll dig around. I don't think I misunderstood anything. If I come up with the letter I'll post it here. IF I'm wrong, I'll apologize whole-heartedly.
     
  19. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    Exactly where, in exactly what terms, for exactly what purposes, and how is that relevant to this question?

    Indeed, see Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

    Of course, the place to look for insight into this sort of question is case law. I haven't found any reported federal appellate cases dealing with manufacturing ammunition, but there are a number dealing with dealing in firearms.

    So, for example, the Third Circuit, in upholding a conviction of dealing in firearms without a license noted (U.S. v. Tyson, 653 F.3d 192 (3rd Cir., 2011), at 200-201, emphasis added):

    And the Fifth Circuit noted (United States v. Brenner (5th. Cir., 2012, No. 11-50432, slip opinion), at 5-6):

    The Sixth Circuit noted (United States v. Gray (6th Cir., 2012, slip opinion), at 8):

    And in upholding Gray's conviction the Sixth Circuit also noted (Gray, at 8-9):

    In affirming a conviction of dealing in firearms without a license, the Ninth Circuit stated (U.S. v. Breier, 813 F.2d 212 (C.A.9 (Cal.), 1987), at 213-214):

    Based on those cases I'd have to say that the guy you mentioned in post 16 who:
    had something to worry about. He might have worked at NSA, but NSA staff wouldn't necessarily be expected to be familiar with federal firearms law.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  20. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    I carried the BATF ammo mfg license for quite a few years, as i reloaded and sold the reloads. I also sold NEW ammo that i loaded.

    I also went to BATF seminars, and "I" was told by an ATF agent at one of those seminars, that it was NOT legal to reload for someone else, even if you gave them the ammo. IF anyone other than the one that reloaded the ammo was going to shoot it, then THEY had to load it or help you reload that ammo.

    I assume a BATF agent giving an BATF seminar would know the law, but in any case, they sure as heck will be the ones investigating you if there's a problem on down the road with that ammo!

    DM
     
  21. gc70

    gc70 Member

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  22. DJW

    DJW Member

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    No wonder this country is messed up. 22 comments all idiotic! I have been reloading for myself for over 50 yrs. and have never heard such foolishness. All you jailhouse lawyers need to go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and ****. This ranks as the dumbest thread I have seen in many a year.
     
  23. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    [1] I'm a real lawyer and practiced law successfully for over 30 years.

    [2] Perhaps one reason you find this foolish is that you don't understand what the thread is about. Perhaps you need to learn to read more carefully.

    [3] This thread has absolutely nothing to do with reloading for yourself. This thread is about reloading and selling the reloaded ammunition you manufacture. It can in fact be a federal crime to do so without proper license, and conviction can get you a length term in a federal prison plus the associated lifetime loss of gun rights.

    [4] Also you should be aware that we have rules about language and demeanor on this board. Your language and insulting remarks are out of line.
     
  24. 4season

    4season Member

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    So from one post you state that this is dumbest thread? Maybe you should learn to read the whole thread before passing judgement.
     
  25. DJW

    DJW Member

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    I still think it is dumb to beat a dead horse..........why does it need to be stated that many times that selling reloads requires all kinds of insurance and permitting? It is generally understood that there are certain requirements for selling reloads. Just keep beating that horse.
     
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