Reloads not loading in 9mm - setup help.

[rfwobbly]

Mr Q -

Lead is always more trouble for the novice reloader. Lead bullets are a larger diameter than plated or jacketed and can vary wildly in size. This is why I suggested you NOT start reloading with lead. You are simply piling trouble upon trouble. It's very much like taking up skydiving and parachute folding all on the same day. Not saying it can't be done, but you had better bring some aspirin for Excedrin headache #355.

Sometimes dies are bad. In the last 40 years I've had 1 faulty set. But the risk of having bad dies is extremely low with the new CNC equipment they use to make and inspect them. Therefore, based on the likelihood of possible error sources, let's return to the most realistic source of the issue at hand. With absolutely no malice meant or inferred sir, the number 1 source is the novice reloader.

Now back to your solution.


Hope this helps!

 

[John_Q]

rfwobbly - thanks for all the advice - I really appreciate it. Think I'll give up on lead and try jackets on Monday. I"m running in circles and starting to confuse myself.

Now I'm starting to question what S5 does - you said move it down an 1/8 turn - it doesnt seem to make any different if I move it down 1/8 or 5 turns, it doesnt seem to do any crimping.

As a test I took a used case, widened the mouth then went to station S5 and crimped it (without the bullet). No matter how many turns I give it it wont fit back into the chamber. After crimping it, its 0.383. As you said - thats not good enough.

 

[kingmt]

It must be a crimp die.

I don't know your load but if it isn't ejecting then the pressure is to low. Ether not enough powder or to long of a OAL. This is a tiny cartridge & a small difference in seating depth makes a big difference in pressure. From looking at your round it looks like it is to long.

 

[John_Q]

That could well be. I think the biggest problem I'm also having is I can't find any loading data for the bullets. So going to get some FMJ on Monday and then I will know what COL to use exactly. As rfwobby say's - for a beginner I"m poking around in the dark. Too much/too little crimp/incorrect COL etc etc.

I"ll report back on Mon

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Q -

You simply don't understand the properties of the metal(s) you're dealing with. It's only a small matter of education. Luckily you're among friends. Just keep those payments coming and we'll answer all your questions.

#1 Remember when I said to make a "test cartridge" ?? To form the brass you must have something to push against. An anvil, as it were. In this case the "something hard" is the bullet. You can't form the brass without a bullet in it. IOW, you can't form an empty case!

#2 The other problem is that when you taper crimp (say for instance) to .380", you can't stick it back in and move that same cartridge to .379". The brass simply "springs back" too much to allow small incremental changes. So you need to be working with a case that's maybe .005-.007" larger. Therefore if your last reading was at (for instance) .381" you'll need at least 5 new 'test cartridges' and 5 small die movements to get to the magic .376" that your pal RC recommended. Follow?

So you're probably trying to use the same case over and over. That simply won't work. Make 10 test units now. You can use your kinetic hammer to take them all apart later, and thereby recycle all the bullets and cases. So you're going to need to make up maybe 10 test cartridges to make these setting.

Under no circumstances confuse taper crimp with kissin'. In taper crimp MORE IS NOT BETTER. You want to be exactly between .378 and .376". That's the crimp diameter zone; no more no less. No lousy measurements allowed. No excuses accepted. No refunds made. No whining allowed. Batteries not included.

I'm looking forward to your first payment. Unmarked bills. Brown paper bag.

Thanks.

 

[John_Q]

No wonder I've been having problems with an empty case

I follow what your saying about the brass springing back. I'll give it another bash tomorrow morning on 10 test cartridges and report back. (Maybe the night elves will bless all my brass)

Payment posted off

 

[beatledog7]

John Q--

For my CZ 75, some lead bullets have to be seated as short as .997" to feed and cycle properly. At that OAL I adjust the powder charge down (started at book minimum minus about 10%).

9mm rounds that short look a little funny, but they shoot just fine.

 

[John_Q]

For my CZ 75, some lead bullets have to be seated as short as .997" to feed and cycle properly.

Wow. ok. That's interesting. I'll also give that a bash tomorrow. They do look odd so I though something that short can't be right.

I"m armed with a some new ideas now - bright and early tomorrow I'll try again.

Beers are on me when I get it right

 

[Fatdaddy]

That looks like either a tight chamber issue being complicated by the oversized lead bullet. I guess it would be possible to have a bad sizing die but the chamber is more likely the culprit. I had a KKM bbl that had the same issue with lead bullets. It had a tight/match chamber that would take a fmj with no issues but a lead bullet being a little bigger, wouldn't chamber.
I opened the chamber up a little with a split wooden dowel chucked in a drill with some very fine sandpaper and oil. This would be my last resort though.

I think Lee will make you a custom undersized sizer for fairly little $$.

 

[918v]

Your bullets are too big in diameter. Your reloads won't chamber unless you seat these bullets so deep the case mouth overlaps the ogjive. Look at the middle round in rfwobbly's drawing. The area of the barrel between the chamber and the rifling is called the throat. If your bullets are say .357" in diameter and the throat is also .357" in diameter, the round won't chamber. You cannot drop same diameter cylinders into one another.

 

[Fishslayer]

Is that a crimp groove forward of the lube?

ummm.... are you sure the bullets are 9mm .356" & not .38 .358"?

Definitely looks like it needs to be seated deeper.

 

[John_Q]

The bullets are 9mm .356 RN 115gr - Its on the box and I've just measured one. The length of the bullet is 0.534

Yes - that's a crimp groove. I crimped it too much. From the posts above I must only crimp it slightly. The problem is if I crimp it slightly then the round doesnt flush into the chamber. Sounds like I'll really need to seat them a lot deeper, especially if I need to get the case mouth to overlap the ogjive. I estimate the bullet will stick out 0.310

I'll try a few test rounds tomorrow at various depths.

 

[Rule3]

Wow, it should not be this difficult. Why a crimp groove on a 9mm semi auto bullet?? Sounds like a bullet problem. Do you have any FMJ or Plated with no crimp groove?

If in fact is is a 9mm LRN 115 gr bullet and you have a BHP or a CZ, they both have extremely short leades (chamber) the magic number for my guns with this type of bullet is 1.060 or perhaps a bit less. When seating this short, use the starting powder load. Put a light taper crimp as mentioned.

With the barrel out of the gun the round should plop in and fall out when turned over. If not seat a tiny bit more .

 

[John_Q]

@Rule3 - sorry, I meant the bullet has a crimp mark on it from me overcrimping it. On a new bullet there's no crimp marks.

I'm try the shorter depth and report back.

 

[rcmodel]

I'm having a really hard time figuring out how a 9mm taper-crimp die could put a revolver type roll-crimp groove in a lead bullet like the one in the photo??

rc

 

[John_Q]

Not sure - that's got me confused as well. If I turn the knob down then it really crimps the hell out it. Going to remove the crimping tomorrow on the 4th die and just seat the bullet and then use the last die to taper crimp it.

 

[kingmt]

I had a typo earlier. I meant it sounds like it isn't a crimping die. I also had in mind we were talking about a .380.

I don't want to start reading from top so is this a Luger or Browning?

 

[John_Q]

It's a browning HP handgun.

 

[rcmodel]

If I turn the knob down then it really crimps the hell out it.

I guess that must be the Hornady die??
How about you throw it away and use the RCBS die to seat and crimp?

With the RCBS die:
Screwing the die body down increases the amount of taper-crimp.
Screwing the seater stem rod down increases the seating depth.

I have no idea what the Hornady die is doing??

Anyway, how did you come by this mis-matched set of dies?

Is it possible the RCBS die came out of a four die set that hasn't got a crimp function in the seater??
Is it possible the Hornady die is a roll crimp seater for something else??

I'm beginning to think maybe none of know for sure what you have mixed in the die assortment from different sets you are trying to use?

rc

 

[John_Q]

Its very possible - how would I confirm this?

I bought it 2nd hand and it came with the mismatching dies.

I'll just try using the RCBS die and see what happens. I've got loads of things to try out tomorrow

 

[kingmt]

I'm thinking the same as RC.

 

[oldreloader]

Some die sets even though for 9MM still have a roll crimp in them. Make sure the die you crimp with is a taper crimp die. I could be mistaken but I think some RCBS and Hornady dies have roll crimps.I know I have a Hornady that does but I crimp with a Lee.

 

[GLOOB]

Wow, it should not be this difficult. Why a crimp groove on a 9mm semi auto bullet?? Sounds like a bullet problem.

With a crimp groove, you can deflare (not roll crimp) the bullet in the same step as seating, without making lead and lube shavings. Well, you could if it was in the right spot for your desired OAL, anyway. I wish they all had a crimp groove. My MBC 200 gr RNFPs have one, and they allow me to load my 45ACP faster on my SS press.

 

[rfwobbly]

It's not that difficult on your second caliber, but sometimes it takes a while on the first. Just think about it. We have a newbie here with used equipment and and he's loading for a difficult gun. He's learning everything at once.

 

[Walkalong]

If I turn the knob down then it really crimps the hell out it.

I guess that must be the Hornady die??
How about you throw it away and use the RCBS die to seat and crimp?

Yep, the Hornady seater sleeve has a crimp surface that is much closer to a roll crimp than a taper crimp. They are almost worthless to taper crimp. They use the same crimp ledge in the 9MM seater sleeve as they do in the .38 Spl seater sleeve, and it roll crimps nicely. Hornady should change the 9MM sleeve to one with a taper crimp, instead of cheaping out and using the same sleeve for both.

Here is a pic of a lead bullet seated with the Hornady .38 Spl seater crimper. Original post here.