Gary O
Member
The factory recoil pad on my new 870 is just a little softer than my workbench. Any of you folks ever try some of the pre-fit aftermarket pads that are available? Thanks…
Rem factory "recoil" pads?
- Thread starter Gary O
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TrapperReady
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I installed a pre-fit Limbsaver on a Winchester 1300 that works very nicely.
I'm also a big fan of the Pachmyar Decelerator and the Kick-Eez products, although those I've had fitted to the stocks.
I'm also a big fan of the Pachmyar Decelerator and the Kick-Eez products, although those I've had fitted to the stocks.
sm
member
Decelerator®
http://www.lymanproducts.com/
http://www.lymanproducts.com/pachmayr/index.htm
"Pre-Fit®" Decelerator® Recoil Pads
Recoil mangagment encompasses a lot of factors besides "how squishy" a recoil pad is.
Yes I am biased. There is only one Recoil Pad and that is Pachmayr. Be it for shotgun or rifle.
Yes I have tried new offerings and I hate them. In fact the factory rubber one on a NEF Youth 12 ga is better. Give me a 15 year old White Line over a new offerering if I cannot have a Pachmyer.
I semi retired a 1974 SX1 with over 200K rds thru it. I competed using Pachmayr Decelerator on it ( all my guns). I put the Original Factory Recoil pad back on for Sentimental Retirement reasons...original is better than this new marketed stuff out now IMO.
Gun Fit to shooter, Correct Basic Fundamentals as applies to tasks. Then again I am very very biased.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/
http://www.lymanproducts.com/pachmayr/index.htm
"Pre-Fit®" Decelerator® Recoil Pads
Recoil mangagment encompasses a lot of factors besides "how squishy" a recoil pad is.
Yes I am biased. There is only one Recoil Pad and that is Pachmayr. Be it for shotgun or rifle.
Yes I have tried new offerings and I hate them. In fact the factory rubber one on a NEF Youth 12 ga is better. Give me a 15 year old White Line over a new offerering if I cannot have a Pachmyer.
I semi retired a 1974 SX1 with over 200K rds thru it. I competed using Pachmayr Decelerator on it ( all my guns). I put the Original Factory Recoil pad back on for Sentimental Retirement reasons...original is better than this new marketed stuff out now IMO.
Gun Fit to shooter, Correct Basic Fundamentals as applies to tasks. Then again I am very very biased.
Delivery McGee
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- Joined
- Feb 5, 2006
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- 30
I have a Pachmayr Decelerator on my Marlin 1895G .45-70. Makes the hottest 405-grain handloads feel like light target birdshot out of my 870.
Now that I think about it, this pair of guns is a bit redundant, isn't it? Both have 18" barrels and throw an ounce of lead . . . oh well, this way I get to choose which hand to work the action with.
Now that I think about it, this pair of guns is a bit redundant, isn't it? Both have 18" barrels and throw an ounce of lead . . . oh well, this way I get to choose which hand to work the action with.
TrapperReady
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Steve - Aside from being a curmudgeon, what causes you to hate newer offerings? My 425 wears a Decelerator, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one to anybody. However, my wife uses a Kick-Eez and I've got Limbsavers on two pumps (one fitted by me to see how it worked, the other OEM on a new 870). They all do a fine job at mitigating the felt recoil, and I like the Kick-Eez Rocker enough that my next sporting clays gun will wear one.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
TR,
S'OK, it's choices that make horse races. Us old stuck-in-the-mud folks are like that, it's OK, really it is.
I like LimbSavers because our family 'smith likes them, and I don't argue with him. They work, too.
lpl/nc
S'OK, it's choices that make horse races. Us old stuck-in-the-mud folks are like that, it's OK, really it is.
I like LimbSavers because our family 'smith likes them, and I don't argue with him. They work, too.
lpl/nc
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
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- 2,732
Lee - I'm not trying to stir anything up. I'm genuinely interested in what Steve's opinions are regarding the newer stuff. We all know that his testing and evaluation methods can be <ahem> non-standard... certainly surpassing my typical "shoot the snot out of it and leave it at that" approach.
BTW, the vast majority of my hunting is done with older guns which have the stock butt plate installed. Since I do the vast majority of my hunting in colder temps, there's typically a few layers of clothing and I appreciate the smooth snag-free mount that the plates allow. Besides, whenever possible, I hunt with target loads or moderate reloads which don't generate the pounding you get with some of the heavier factory-made hunting shells.
BTW, the vast majority of my hunting is done with older guns which have the stock butt plate installed. Since I do the vast majority of my hunting in colder temps, there's typically a few layers of clothing and I appreciate the smooth snag-free mount that the plates allow. Besides, whenever possible, I hunt with target loads or moderate reloads which don't generate the pounding you get with some of the heavier factory-made hunting shells.
sm
member
I will attempt to share my viewpoint best can.
101
I started out many years ago when many guns did not have recoil pads. I did start out with Correct Basics and Fundamentals - including Gun Fit.
Mentors & Elders shared and later on Reading substaniated thoughts and my beliefs regarding Recoil Curves.
Many factors come into play here. Components of shotshells (paper/ plastic hulls, wads, powder burn rates) Rule of 96s, Payload to bore, Action type, variances of similar action types (gas, inertia) stock materials ( wood is dense and relates recoil and affects recoil different amongst different woods and same applies to different synthetic materials) Stock configurations (not "gun fit" instead for instance how wide is the butt, meaning how wide and how shaped are toe and heel ?).
--
Now using something to "absorb" like anything else often takes more than one approach. Allow me use Snow tires as an example. One approach is to use Studs imbedded into the rubber to "grip" the snow for traction.
Another approach is to use tread design and rubber compounds that trap snow into that tread design and the snow actually on purpose stays in this tread/compound to "grab" snow on the ground to gain traction.
Two seemingly "opposite" methods that each work.
I mean add ice to hot tea or pour tea over ice - iced tea results either way.
--
Shooting Styles and tasks.
I will not get into folks wearing vests and doing room clearings such as HRT, SWAT, Military needs. Principles are the same for them as are the folks with previous detached retinas, other physical reasons that use the wood stocks with recoil systems shooting Clay games.
Clay shooters may indeed shoot more in a week or month that some will shoot in a year, a 5 year time period. Heck even a lifetime with a shotgun.
Applicable to those aforementioned in Respective Roles, training, and instructing said Roles.
Clay shooters - either shoot pre-mount if given a choice ( such as skeet or trap) or Low gun in Sporting Clays, Int'l trap, Int'l skeet or those us that do so at skeet, trap, by choice - or out hunting.
--
My observations:
I shoot low gun.
Take a look at the rear of your shotgun and take note of the Size, (width, height, toe, heel) of the stock itself.
Now do the same with the Recoil pad , or if not one, the metal or plastic butt plate.
What do you see? Look again, and really look at it.
Now close your eyes and run hands, palm of hand and finger over whatever you have. Apply pressure with hands, palms and fingers. Let that marinate.
Take your weak hand and place onto / into strong side shooting pocket. Apply pressure. Everyone is built the same, but not, are different. Ladies are built different than men, and not just the mammaries. Ladies have a different adipose (fat) system than men. Even in the "pocket area".
Bear with me, understand I really observe things , even though I may not look like I am, or folks do not understand my take on things.
Now go get a glass bottle, or a rolling pin. Pretend this is a recoil pad and apply the longest area to shooting pocket (not bottom of bottle) - yes apply pressure, have someone "push it" against your shooting pocket.
Now get your tennis shoes, Apply the sole of tennis shoe the same way as above. Use the ball of the tennis shoe, the toe area of tennis shoe and the heel portions. Push any and all these areas of tennis shoes, heck a tennis shoe sole is more "squishy" being made of rubber- right?
Light bulb come on yet?
First off Pachmayr really did a a LOT of research on Recoil Curves . Pachmayr also did a LOT of research on material compositions and as to how Recoil Curves respond, with all makes of shooting actions not only shotguns but rifles as well.
Pachmayr has the Compositon that - in my personal use - and who knows how many folks I have worked with, observed, shot with / against - that Pachmayr Compostion works best for the greatest # of folks.
A # 2 pencil made of cedar wood and with real lead will always perform better than than a "Similar" #2 pencil made from imitation wood and synthetic lead.
Get one of each and write with them - now go sharpen each. Obvious.
The best compliment is to be emulated - does not mean the emulator , or the competitior got it right. Just means you have a competitior.
Now most folks I actually do the glass bottle vs tennis shoes ...
---btw the ladies are more receptive to me doing this, I ask permisson to put hands on their body and I do not take advantage of this permisson...guys are more sensitive about a guy placing a glass bottle/ tennis shoe against their shooting pocket...I mean ladies change into a bikini top or somesuch to better view and learn--
...the rounded glass bottle was more comfortable, fit into the pocket better due to shape even when shoved into pocket that the flat more abrupt perpendicular sole to rest of tennis shoe configuration even though the tennis shoe is "supposed" to be - percieved in folks mind to be "softer and more "squishy".
Many of the other Recoil Pads are just not up to par into material compostions, [just not designed with the Recoil Curve studied] they have sharp perpendicular angles, toe and heels.
Now many folks to taper toe heels to not only prevent snagging , also in the event a bad mount occurs, that "pointy" butt does not "dig into" them - especially ladies need to address this, as do men with (sorry) adipose deposits that cause some make derogatory remarks about them having female mammaries. [ I tried to be considerate and respectful guys].
Many folks (including myself) have tried to contour many of the new pads. They for the most part do not respond well to contouring or tweaking. Compostions stock were limited, contouring made matters worse...really screws the pooch with recoil curves and mgmt.
--
I prefer a smooth surface. Besides toe and heel being contoured , including inside toward me , even on a Decel/Pach....which I used in serious competition and prefer...cause of shooting low gun and getting a smooth gun to face really really fast...
Recoil - well it Recoils. Smooth surface allows for me the gun to move if need. I am going to drop gun, remount for second shots anyway.
Recoil pads with "grippers" , "serrations" and such are used mostly by folks that premount. Some "think" the air trapped will "cushion" more.
Now think about this.
The idea is get the gun into pocket smoothly as one mounts gun to face.
Shotgun or Rifle...no matter.
You get a bad mount, for whatever reason, and 1) you are less able to adjust that mount, 2) gun butt not positioned in sweet spot is gonna hurt - period. 3) if you shoot again, well that sucker is still stuck in same wrong spot and it will hurt again, and each time you fire until you quit shooting, remount, or the critter, clay escapes un-hit because you missed due to bad mount or - that flinch is really playing havoc because that sharp danged old pad just hurts...no matter how squishy it was "supposed" to be.
Observations. I was watching , I was looking at bruises, kids, women, and men, I was putting bees wax and talc on Recoil pads and bare butt-stocks and and "pushing" them into sweet spots on folks, them looking at what touched, and what did not. Same idea works on handgun stocks for better fit too..."file what is touching" ...
Yes everyone is different. Just over the years some observations shape my views is all.
Pachmayr got it right, still keeps it right...IMHO.
Regards,
Steve
ps - explains why a baby learning to walk can't - so well - wearing them hard soled - sharp edged "walking shoes". Anything that kid learning gets near with them shoes catches and causes child to fall. I mean just anything . Now...
Barefoot, or even baby footies, even "roundish" soled tennis shoes that do not catch and snag on dust and sunbeams...little one learns to walk better and does not fall down.
101
I started out many years ago when many guns did not have recoil pads. I did start out with Correct Basics and Fundamentals - including Gun Fit.
Mentors & Elders shared and later on Reading substaniated thoughts and my beliefs regarding Recoil Curves.
Many factors come into play here. Components of shotshells (paper/ plastic hulls, wads, powder burn rates) Rule of 96s, Payload to bore, Action type, variances of similar action types (gas, inertia) stock materials ( wood is dense and relates recoil and affects recoil different amongst different woods and same applies to different synthetic materials) Stock configurations (not "gun fit" instead for instance how wide is the butt, meaning how wide and how shaped are toe and heel ?).
--
Now using something to "absorb" like anything else often takes more than one approach. Allow me use Snow tires as an example. One approach is to use Studs imbedded into the rubber to "grip" the snow for traction.
Another approach is to use tread design and rubber compounds that trap snow into that tread design and the snow actually on purpose stays in this tread/compound to "grab" snow on the ground to gain traction.
Two seemingly "opposite" methods that each work.
I mean add ice to hot tea or pour tea over ice - iced tea results either way.
--
Shooting Styles and tasks.
I will not get into folks wearing vests and doing room clearings such as HRT, SWAT, Military needs. Principles are the same for them as are the folks with previous detached retinas, other physical reasons that use the wood stocks with recoil systems shooting Clay games.
Clay shooters may indeed shoot more in a week or month that some will shoot in a year, a 5 year time period. Heck even a lifetime with a shotgun.
Applicable to those aforementioned in Respective Roles, training, and instructing said Roles.
Clay shooters - either shoot pre-mount if given a choice ( such as skeet or trap) or Low gun in Sporting Clays, Int'l trap, Int'l skeet or those us that do so at skeet, trap, by choice - or out hunting.
--
My observations:
I shoot low gun.
Take a look at the rear of your shotgun and take note of the Size, (width, height, toe, heel) of the stock itself.
Now do the same with the Recoil pad , or if not one, the metal or plastic butt plate.
What do you see? Look again, and really look at it.
Now close your eyes and run hands, palm of hand and finger over whatever you have. Apply pressure with hands, palms and fingers. Let that marinate.
Take your weak hand and place onto / into strong side shooting pocket. Apply pressure. Everyone is built the same, but not, are different. Ladies are built different than men, and not just the mammaries. Ladies have a different adipose (fat) system than men. Even in the "pocket area".
Bear with me, understand I really observe things , even though I may not look like I am, or folks do not understand my take on things.
Now go get a glass bottle, or a rolling pin. Pretend this is a recoil pad and apply the longest area to shooting pocket (not bottom of bottle) - yes apply pressure, have someone "push it" against your shooting pocket.
Now get your tennis shoes, Apply the sole of tennis shoe the same way as above. Use the ball of the tennis shoe, the toe area of tennis shoe and the heel portions. Push any and all these areas of tennis shoes, heck a tennis shoe sole is more "squishy" being made of rubber- right?
Light bulb come on yet?
First off Pachmayr really did a a LOT of research on Recoil Curves . Pachmayr also did a LOT of research on material compositions and as to how Recoil Curves respond, with all makes of shooting actions not only shotguns but rifles as well.
Pachmayr has the Compositon that - in my personal use - and who knows how many folks I have worked with, observed, shot with / against - that Pachmayr Compostion works best for the greatest # of folks.
A # 2 pencil made of cedar wood and with real lead will always perform better than than a "Similar" #2 pencil made from imitation wood and synthetic lead.
Get one of each and write with them - now go sharpen each. Obvious.
The best compliment is to be emulated - does not mean the emulator , or the competitior got it right. Just means you have a competitior.
Now most folks I actually do the glass bottle vs tennis shoes ...
---btw the ladies are more receptive to me doing this, I ask permisson to put hands on their body and I do not take advantage of this permisson...guys are more sensitive about a guy placing a glass bottle/ tennis shoe against their shooting pocket...I mean ladies change into a bikini top or somesuch to better view and learn--
...the rounded glass bottle was more comfortable, fit into the pocket better due to shape even when shoved into pocket that the flat more abrupt perpendicular sole to rest of tennis shoe configuration even though the tennis shoe is "supposed" to be - percieved in folks mind to be "softer and more "squishy".
Many of the other Recoil Pads are just not up to par into material compostions, [just not designed with the Recoil Curve studied] they have sharp perpendicular angles, toe and heels.
Now many folks to taper toe heels to not only prevent snagging , also in the event a bad mount occurs, that "pointy" butt does not "dig into" them - especially ladies need to address this, as do men with (sorry) adipose deposits that cause some make derogatory remarks about them having female mammaries. [ I tried to be considerate and respectful guys].
Many folks (including myself) have tried to contour many of the new pads. They for the most part do not respond well to contouring or tweaking. Compostions stock were limited, contouring made matters worse...really screws the pooch with recoil curves and mgmt.
--
I prefer a smooth surface. Besides toe and heel being contoured , including inside toward me , even on a Decel/Pach....which I used in serious competition and prefer...cause of shooting low gun and getting a smooth gun to face really really fast...
Recoil - well it Recoils.
Smooth surface allows for me the gun to move if need. I am going to drop gun, remount for second shots anyway. Recoil pads with "grippers" , "serrations" and such are used mostly by folks that premount. Some "think" the air trapped will "cushion" more.
Now think about this.
The idea is get the gun into pocket smoothly as one mounts gun to face.
Shotgun or Rifle...no matter.
You get a bad mount, for whatever reason, and 1) you are less able to adjust that mount, 2) gun butt not positioned in sweet spot is gonna hurt - period. 3) if you shoot again, well that sucker is still stuck in same wrong spot and it will hurt again, and each time you fire until you quit shooting, remount, or the critter, clay escapes un-hit because you missed due to bad mount or - that flinch is really playing havoc because that sharp danged old pad just hurts...no matter how squishy it was "supposed" to be.
Observations. I was watching , I was looking at bruises, kids, women, and men, I was putting bees wax and talc on Recoil pads and bare butt-stocks and and "pushing" them into sweet spots on folks, them looking at what touched, and what did not. Same idea works on handgun stocks for better fit too..."file what is touching" ...
Yes everyone is different. Just over the years some observations shape my views is all.
Pachmayr got it right, still keeps it right...IMHO.
Regards,
Steve
ps - explains why a baby learning to walk can't - so well - wearing them hard soled - sharp edged "walking shoes". Anything that kid learning gets near with them shoes catches and causes child to fall. I mean just anything . Now...
Barefoot, or even baby footies, even "roundish" soled tennis shoes that do not catch and snag on dust and sunbeams...little one learns to walk better and does not fall down.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Remington's standard red trestle pad of yore has worked OK for me, but there's a couple Decellerators here and one Limbsaver. That last is left untrimmed and on Frankenstein, for max surface area with heavy loads.
Target shotguns oft have larger butts than field guns. The pad from my TB placed on a standard stock has a good 1/4" overlap.
Some bird guns made even today have no pad nor plate. Al Clark of the Geezer Squad has a custom Grulla, a high quality Spanish made gun built to British game gun specs. The butt is formed and checkered wood. Al, being an intelligent sort, uses light loads in it.
The little Belgian/French SxS I had was similar. The butt was checkered wood, shaped to the "cup" of the shoulder and quite comfortable to shoot.
Good pads are nice to have. Max advantages with them happens with good form and fit. Light loads help also.
As for Rem standard pads, I've found rounding off the toe a bit helps comfort for barrell chested men and most women.
HTH....
Target shotguns oft have larger butts than field guns. The pad from my TB placed on a standard stock has a good 1/4" overlap.
Some bird guns made even today have no pad nor plate. Al Clark of the Geezer Squad has a custom Grulla, a high quality Spanish made gun built to British game gun specs. The butt is formed and checkered wood. Al, being an intelligent sort, uses light loads in it.
The little Belgian/French SxS I had was similar. The butt was checkered wood, shaped to the "cup" of the shoulder and quite comfortable to shoot.
Good pads are nice to have. Max advantages with them happens with good form and fit. Light loads help also.
As for Rem standard pads, I've found rounding off the toe a bit helps comfort for barrell chested men and most women.
HTH....
JohnBT
Member
The screwed-on wooden 'pad' on my Guerini is softer than the pad that came on my '93 Express. It was just a thin piece of rubber stretched over a big piece of hard plastic.
JT
JT
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