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Remember that video about police complain forms in FL?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by SomeKid, Mar 31, 2006.

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  1. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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  2. mcg-doc

    mcg-doc Member

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    I would like to see some comments from law enforcement members. Have they seen such BOLO warnings?
     
  3. hammer4nc

    hammer4nc Member

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    "La Hermandad":fire:
     
  4. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Here's the article. I wish members would take a minute to cut and paste the article into the thread. Links on news sites go dead and in a few weeks someone may ressurect this thread with a search and they won't be able to access the article everyone is talking about.

    I see nothing wrong with this. The union did it, not a department. I suppose you'd all be just as outraged if the Teamsters put out a BOLO on their website about a news crew that was going around trying to make truck drivers look bad. The union doesn't carry out legitimate law enforcement functions. It's a union and I'm sure it put the information out there to warn it's members so that they didn't involve the union in litigation.

    There is no complaint here. No police department did anything under color of law that was wrong. This isn't a police state issue. No government agency was involved.

    Don't like it, complain to the AFL/CIO....

    Jeff
     
  5. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    Jeff,

    True, it was the Union that circulated the BOLO. However, you shouldn't overlook that their membership can do quite a few things no other person can do. The article even takes note of them doing such things:

    Why they assumed the Hollywood department, I am not sure. Turns out, either it was a different department that did the search, or IA is covering the other cops:

    Keep in mind how he wrote that, nobody in his department. It very well could have been someone from another department.
     
  6. NukemJim

    NukemJim Member

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    Bold type by NukemJim

    Sorta kinda looks like somebody accessed some database that has drivers license data about this reporter.

    Regardless of who published the data IMHO it was wrong.

    If someone had a disagreement with a hospital and their confidental health info was published I would be suspicous of the hospital, I am NOT cop bashing, just stating how it appears to me.

    NukemJim
     
  7. Creeping Incrementalism

    Creeping Incrementalism Member

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    Copyright infringement.

    Someone in the union did this with information available to the police department, and not to the general public.
     
  8. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Drivers license information is available to the general public. In many states you just have to contact the right agency and pay a small fee. There are also many information house websites where all kinds of public information can be purchased from private vendors who collect it.

    It is against the rules to use LEADS and NCIC for anything but official business. The system keeps a record of what agency ran what information. The agency keeps a record of what officer ran it. It would be very stupid for someone to risk his/her career to come up with the reporter's DL file number to post on a website. It would be very easy to find out who did it. Every LEADS operator, including officers who have terminals in their cars has a unique log on and password. It would be very easy to prove the allegation, that's why Hollywood PD was so quick to dismiss the complaint.

    There is likely no police misconduct here, although I'm quite certain the press release was designed to make the public think there was misconduct.

    Jeff
     
  9. DunedinDragon

    DunedinDragon Member

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    From a legal perspective, maybe or maybe not. From a civil perspective, absolutely!!! Next time you break up with a girlfriend or a wife, try posting negative and private information about her in a public forum where she can be identified and potentially targetted and see how much it ends up costing you in civil court.

    Let's get real here, this was an act of retribution and harrassment pure and simple. There's no other reason for it to be posted. Is that an attribute law enforcement wants to be associated with? Then they aggravate the situation by making excuses for it and "protecting" each other?

    And law enforcement seems to be baffled by the increasing lack of respect for them from the general public? Hmmmmmm.....wonder why???
     
  10. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Member

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    This isn't really about these particular actions, but rather the gang-like "us vs. them" mentality of police organizations. This comes up over and over.

    That behavior (I'm going to take flak for this) is thuggish.

    Why do they feel the need to take a confrontational, antagonistic approach to this? It isn't their duty to be this way. We do not expect them to respond in this manner. They should stick to doing their job, and lose the clannish characteristics (not clannish as in KKK).


    It troubles me when they begin acting as a party in a dispute, rather than as the neutral arbitrator/enforcer of the law.
     
  11. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    Perhaps because the reporter is making a name for himself by generating confrontations with local cops? Confrontations that place the cops confronted under stress to show how they respond in different stressful situations.

    That does not excuse the cop union's behavior, which is essentially an act of intimidation. Anybody doubt if the cops would squeal if somebody did the same to them by posting the same information, perhaps by/for the use of local organized crime organizations?

    "Be on the lookout for Detective I. B. Leo and Detective Charles O. Parker, who are investigating the delivery and sale of drugs in Dade and Broward. They are setting up your fellow dealers and instigating confrontations, then filing charges with the District Attorney.''
     
  12. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Fantastic!:cool:

    I just wish gun owners would stand up to the bullies in the media like this. If I were the cops I would hire PIs, arm them with video cameras and have all the reporters followed night and day. I would then do the same set ups that they pulled on the cops and see how the media likes it.

    BTW, the time for media control is now!:cool:
     
  13. DunedinDragon

    DunedinDragon Member

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    Good point!!!! I wonder if the Union would have the same reaction if the DL's, home addresses, and phone numbers of all the cops in the area were published on a website? Obviously from their perspective it's not illegal!!!
     
  14. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    FYI it's not copyright infringement as long as you credit the source.
     
  15. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    The Press v. The Police

    As much disdain I have for the press and as much respect and admiration I have for the police, there are lines that should never be crossed. This is one of them. Kirsch should be accompanied by about ten packing citizens for the next few months, not as body guards, but as potential witnesses should abuse become apparent. The police union has shown their propensity towards intimidation and arrogant misuse of the power their members have. This union presents a danger.

    Exposure of the misdeeds of this union are insufficient to halt this or any further abuses. Civil and criminal action must me taken. The good police who are the members of this union should not be besmirched by this union, nor should they be collectively held responsible for these misdeeds or for any abuses other members of the union may have perpetrated that prompted the original article in the first place.

    The police are not armed for, nor are they present in our society to intimidate. Law enforcement does not require intimidation. Law enforcement is about arresting criminals and promoting comity out there in the flow of traffic.

    Woody
     
  16. chas_martel

    chas_martel Member

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    To all that want to have meaningful discourse with the
    LEO'bots - you are wasting your time.

    Read Flatland and learn why.
     
  17. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    I dunno ... it seems to me like the police should act professionally whether the "confrontation" is real or not.

    If the reporters are doing anything illegal, then the police officers would of course be justified in taking appropriate action.

    Sounds like a good training review to me ... how come IA doesn't do this? ;)
     
  18. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    jfr,

    If you saw the video from the earlier thread, it was a man walking in and politely asking for a complaint form. They were doing some actual investigative journalism, in this case, what do you do if you have a problem with a cop.

    Generating a confrontation would be say, a fake mugging and 911 call. That should be a stressful situation for the cops. Being asked for a complaint form - politely - does not rise to deserving the treatment one should reserve for a child molester.
     
  19. DJJ

    DJJ Member

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    Yeah, every perp is innocent. You should know that.
     
  20. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Member

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    The police are the authorities, we set it up that way. It is part of their burden as the uniform, and representation of neutral authority and of security to NEVER begin acting as a party in a quarrel. That lowers them to the status of a participant in devious actions, rather than as an unbiased enforcer of the law.


    What the reporter or news agency does to aggravate, instigate, antagonize, provoke is not an excuse, nor a justification for the police organization to act in such a way. It is beyond their scope, purpose and duty.


    That's a mighty dangerous line to cross. It's been done many times in our history, so it's nothing to get worked up into a lather over...however, it doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it.


    I understand that it is difficult to expect our LEO's to sit there and "take it"...when the situation seems unfair; however, that is part of the burden of being an LE in a free society.
     
  21. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    Jeff, aren't you an LEO (or a retired LEO)?

    There IS a complaint here. The only way the police union could have obtained these guys' drivers license numbers is by accessing a police computer system, and accessing a police computer system for other than official law enforcement purposes is illegal.

    Further, whether done by an "agency" as an official act or by a union as an "unofficial" act, any time police officers target individuals for "special attention" due to nothing more than exercising Constitutionally-guaranteed rights, it's wrong. It is unquestionably wrong morally, and I'm certain if I were an attorney I could find at least half a dozen laws that would say it's wrong.
     
  22. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    "Confrontations that place the cops under stress?"

    Since when is asking "Do you have a form I can use to file a complaint" a stress-creating situation? Granted, when I read the original reports about this "expose'" I felt the reporters' sting was stupid and ill-conceived, because you don't necessarily need a form to initiate a complaint, but I can't see that asking for a form creates any stress on the part of the officer/dispatcher/secretary fielding the question. There are two possible answers:

    (1) "Yes, we do. Here it is, please fill out two copies and keep one for your records."

    or

    (2) "No, we don't use a form for complaints. You can speak to the shift supervisor if you want to file a complaint."

    Yes, I know that at some of the departments the reporter tried to turn response #2 into a confrontation, but if the officer at the counter chose to take the bait, he/she was an idiot. And once the officers escalated #2 into a p!ssing contest (especially the cop who was ready to draw down on the reporter in the parking lot) they just made themselves appear to be total cretins.
     
  23. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "The address, date of birth and driver's license number of WFOR CBS-4 reporter Mike Kirsch was posted as a BOLO -- or ''be on the lookout'' -- on the website of the Broward County Police Benevolent Association."

    Aw, what's a little public intimidation by a group of public employees? Benevolent Association? BWAAHAHAHAHAHA.

    John
     
  24. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't Tread On Me said;
    So you're saying that the police are not full citizens? That's a far cry from the usual comments that we are super citizens or above veryone else. Once again, I'd like to remind you that no police department participated in this. A police union put the reporters information on it's website. Police officers have as much right as anyone else to participate in a quarrel or dispute. They cannot do it in an official capacity, but off duty and through organization such as their union, they have as much right as anyone else.

    Again no police department nor any officer acting in his official capacity put that information on the union's website. People in the medical field have a duty to provide care to people who need it, the Hill Burton Act gives hospitals and medical professionals a legal obligation to provide care, yet no one is upset about the lists that they keep and their insurance companies keep of people who have filed malpractice claims in the past. This is no different.

    No we don't have to sit and take it. We have as much of a right to protect ourselves as people in any other profession. Again, this would be wrong if it was done in an offical capacity, but it wasn't. It was done by a union.

    Hawkmoon said;
    Retired Army, full time police officer...

    You must have missed this from my earlier post:

    You are quite right, it's illegal to use the computer system for anything but official business. It also is impossible to use it anonymously. If it was used to obtain the reporter's DL numer, then there was a violation. But since it's impossible to use the system anonymously, and everyone knows that, and since this was sure to be controversial, I'm betting the information was obtained from the Florida DMV or whatever they call it or through an online information broker.

    So what you're saying is that police officers have no rights? Would you support legislation requiring medical professionals and insurance companies from keeping records of people who file malpractice claims? What about bars and package stores keeping lists of false IDs? Your grocery/convenience store posting a list of people not to accept checks from? Theaters and entertainment venues keeping lists of people who have been banned for disruptive conduct?

    The PBA doing this is the same as any of those other professions taking measures to protect themselves. All they are saying is that if you have contact with this guy, be aware he is a news reporter and he has a history of trying to provoke a confrontation in order to make the police look bad. It's no different then the owner of a store posting a list next to the cash register saying; "Don't take checks from these people, they have a history of writing bad ones."

    No one's rights are being violated.

    Jeff
     
  25. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    I don't think posting someone's address on the web is something to be proud of, especially when you've got a beef with them.

    I don't think it's right when someone does it to a police officer and I don't think it's right when they do it to someone.

    John
     
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