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Remember when the greens were after lead ammo

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Sky, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. Sky

    Sky Member

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    http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/11/47311.htm

     
  2. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    I think what has happened is that the popularity of all copper bullets such as those marketed by Barns and others has made the statists realize that banning lead will not work as a backdoor way to ban ammo because really good bullets can be made from other materials.

    There are always two reasons for every law. The good reason and the real reason.
     
  3. Romeo 33 Delta

    Romeo 33 Delta Member

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    Primarily, the law strictly limits the EPA's ability to regulate lead bullets. I forget the particulars, but Federal law when written and passed made it IMPOSSIBLE for the EPA to intrude ... and their efforts died immediately.
     
  4. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    I would think if an animal ingested a lead pellet or bullet, they would simply pass it. Fumes or vapors containing lead are what poisons you.
     
  5. Apuuli

    Apuuli Member

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    That is simply not true. Ingestion of lead is the main route of exposure (this includes lead dissolved in liquid, dust on fingers and food, etc.). Of course a pellet has less surface area than dust and so is less immediately toxic if it does pass.
     
  6. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    I'm willing to wager that there are more pounds of lead lost and ingested in the form of fishing lures than are in the form of lead shot and bullets.
     
  7. Hunterdad

    Hunterdad Member

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    Not true. Although the main cause of lead poisoning is caused by dust, ingesting lead shot/bullets can poison just the same. A paint chip containing lead the size of my thumb nail is enough to kill a child if all ingested at once. So, you can imagine that it wouldn't take much at all to kill an animal.
     
  8. JohnM

    JohnM Member

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    Can you provide links to document such statements?
     
  9. Sky

    Sky Member

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    Me too!

    Other than brain development and nervous system disorders I would like to see where a scientific study says a paint chip will kill someone; Maybe someplace in California would/could come up with a study funded by PETA but I doubt the whole paint chip thing has any validity.

     
  10. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    Is there a cure or treatment for lead poisoning?
     
  11. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

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    The lead in paint is a lead compounds, not the elemental lead used in bullets. The lead compounds are the more troublesome forms of lead (for people at least) related to heavy metal poisoning, and are found in paint, leaded gasoline, etc.

    lead paint = Lead(II) chromate and Lead(II) Carbonate
    Lead in firearms primers = Lead styphanate and lead azide
    Lead in gasoline = tetraethyl Lead

    Birds are a little different than most mammals because they hold things in their crop to help grind food. They actually seek out pebbles to do this, which is why chickens are fed grit. I'm guessing this is contributary to the problem, but im no ornithologist
     
  12. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

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    Mr. Sparks, for very high lead levels there is a chemical treament called chelation. Other than that, the "cure" is to reduce exposure, and wait for the levels to drop.
     
  13. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, the fact that birds grind the materials in their crops increases the surface area for digestive acids to dissolve some of the ingested lead. If not for the acids and grinding, little of the lead would be absorbed.

    EPA specifically excludes lead in ammunition and fishing weights from the TSCA regulation and trying to get EPA to act under TSCA will always result in EPA responding that it has no authority under the TSCA to regulate ammunition. The only way for these folks to get any traction is to try to get TSCA amended and that is not likely to happen.

    As to the paint chip statement, that's incorrect. Children in housing with lead paint have ingested far more than a fingernail sized chip. The problems with lead toxicity by ingestion are well known, but an acute toxicity resulting in death like that isn't one of them.
     
  14. Sky

    Sky Member

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    Source; http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...LjbWT7aeK8_16gHg7NixAw&sqi=2&ved=0CIABEMoEMAI

    That might answer some questions
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  15. Hunterdad

    Hunterdad Member

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    I have the documents to prove it at work. I'm currently home with a newborn and won't be back to work until next Monday. But, I can tell you, its true. Of course it boils down to individual susceptibility. What may seriously effect one child, may not effect another at all.
    I have been inspecting houses for lead based paint for almost 15 years. I'm a licensed risk assessor, inspector and lead contractor supervisor through the EPA. I am a licensed trainer to train in all disciplines of lead, mold and asbestos. I'm also licensed to do laboratory testing for lead paint chips, dust and water. Not trying to toot my own horn, just don't want anyone to think I'm BS'ing anyone.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  16. ol' scratch

    ol' scratch Member

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    I just read that the introduced petition does not affect military or police. http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/zeroing-in-on-lead-in-hunters-bullets/

    Also, to those in the know. Does this create a problem for avian species? How did they come up with this 20 million bird number? If anyone has ever been on a bird count they would know that it is less than scientific. Every other study I have read indicates that eagles in particular are on the rise. If you have ever been to the Lake Erie shoreline you would see scads of them. Where are they coming up with this? The above sited article claims that shooting lead releases 3000 tons of lead into the environment. How do they know this?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  17. lloveless

    lloveless Member

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    Hunterdad, I know you mean well. I was a member of the Health Dept and I was funded by the lead program. You are wrong about a chip the size of a thumbnail killing a child. If that were the case most of us wouldn't be here, because our parents and grandparents would have died.
    ll
     
  18. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Hunterdad,

    I'm an industrial hygienist for the environmental business unit of a large consulting contractor. You're information is incorrect if you contend that a fingernail sized piece of lead paint will kill a child upon ingestion.
     
  19. grasssnake

    grasssnake Member

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    affect not effect
     
  20. todayshighlights

    todayshighlights Member

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    Massachusetts banned lead sinkers

    Starting this year, there is a state wide ban on lead sinkers and jigs weighing less then 1 ounce in fresh waters.

    This is of course to protect the 32 nesting pairs of loons located on 14 lakes in the state. Massachusetts is at the extreme southern end of the loon's migration. Loons need 1000 acres per nesting pair to survive, and half of the loons are at the Quabbin Reservoir, where lead has been banned forever.

    And to kick'em while they're down - LOONS EAT FISH

    http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/recreation/fishing/lead_sinkers_loons.htm
     
  21. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    If I remember H.P. Lovecraft's "The Colour Out of Space" correctly, lead sinkers are not the only danger in a Massachusett's resevoir.

    On a serious note, lead compounds such as those used in paint are much more toxic than the metallic elemental lead used in ammo or sinkers. Although I make a point of washing my hands after handling lead when reloading ammo or cleaning guns, before eating or drinking.
     
  22. Hunterdad

    Hunterdad Member

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    Ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
    Obviously, I was misunderstood and clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.
     
  23. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    Those loons better watch out... Heck, we better watch out..

    Yeah, lead in compounds gets into living things quite a bit more easily than elemental lead.
     
  24. Sky

    Sky Member

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    I personally am not doubting you were told, or studied, or read a paper/study that indicated a paint chip will do a kid in. What many of us were asking is Where is the info and where did it come from? With so many agendas being published and taught in our schools now it is problematic separating the hard science from the agenda science.
     
  25. x_wrench

    x_wrench Member

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    i can not imagine that this statement can be true. i remember when they were banning lead in paint. they were talking about how it effected the brains, and slowed development in poor children in low income housing. who were eating the paint chips pealing off the walls of their rental housing. the key was the kids were eating many chips, for extended periods of time. and they were not dying, they were developing learning problems, and other issues.

    as far as animals ingesting lead pellets, and dying from it, i guess that would depend on many things. in most part, how sensitive that species is to lead poisoning, and how their digestive system works. some critters have stomach acid that can dissolve almost anything. and if it can dissolve lead, in a fast enough time, and it has a low toxicity level to lead, then i could see how one could die from it. i am no veterinarian. and i have no idea if any animal could do that or not. i would not consider a death from eating lead a lead related death, if it simply chokes on something, or gets it lodged in a place where it stops it from breathing, or passing waste. it could do that from plastic just as well as from lead. so in my eyes, that would not be a lead related death.

    what i do know, is the people that want to ban lead, will stop at nothing, to distort the truth as far as they are able, in order to win support. that would include bribery, extortion, or any other way to manipulate someone to get them to go along with them. make no mistake, this is all out war on their part. and once they ban lead, they will not stop there. i do not know how to wake up America to the facts that are right in front of their faces.
     
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