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Remington UMC green/white box for self defense??

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Smokepole14, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. Smokepole14

    Smokepole14 Member

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    I been watching some YouTube videos lately of people testing the 115 gr jhp and it’s performing very well! I’d say the same results as the the higher end self defense rounds like hst and gold dot. 32 dollars for 100 rounds seems like a steal. You could easily practice and carry the same ammo. Why is this ammo not more talked about??
     
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  2. Starter52

    Starter52 Member

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    Perhaps because of the overwhelming number of 9 mm defense round on the market.

    Or perhaps the subject has been talked to death.
     
  3. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Been watching Paul Harrell eh? ;)

    I'm not sure that it's a bad or even worse option compared to the top shelf stuff and the reality is most of us will never (thankfully!) have to find out how well it works.

    More practice is certainly a great idea.

    Me, I like to load the same weight bullet to the same FPS if the carry JHP I use so I can practice with a load very similar to the carry load. Good practice and cheaper even than green box range ammo.
     
  4. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    I have been handloading those same 115gr hollow points for years. They are in my S&W SW9VE right now. They function and are accurate. I have never tested them for expansion but I have seen test of them. I think the poster 5pins may have done a test on them.

    And it just goes to show you don't have to spend a buck fifty a round to buy decent expanding hollow points. I have never drank the Koolaid on the over priced SD ammo. Even cheap hollow points made now are better than the premium stuff sold way back in the early 1980s.
     
  5. LaneP

    LaneP Member

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    I recently ran some of those over the chronograph and out of my 3.1" P365 they average about 1085 fps. Like alluded to above it's possible people are going for the more "exotic" defense ammo and overlooking the Remington offering. For a 115 grain bullet it's not setting any barns of fire velocity-wise but I would have no problem carrying that and did so for quite a while in my S&W 9 Shield.
     
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  6. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    I should be getting around 1150fps from my 4" barreled guns with the load am using. They should expand at that speed.
     
  7. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Member

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    "All bullets were stopped by either the t-shirt on the back or the first layer of fleece."

    PH does a great job of providing terminal ballistic comparisons of thoracic cavity shots with the meat target. And he does have a point in that some "hyper ammos" don't provide a substantial terminal difference over traditional JHP's, other than looking pretty for an expansion test. The Federal 9BPLE, which is just a traditional JHP with some extra velocity, has had a great reputation for many years.

    Rem G/W JHP, Fed 9PBLE and other traditional JHP ammos aren't talked about as much because:

    1) They aren't advertised as much since they are older technology. It is silly to compare these to newer technology in advertising since it would make the traditional JHP's look subpar. They are advertised as, "We also have traditional JHP's."

    2) Manufacturers make much more margin on the premium JHP's. (Do you really think it costs $10-15 more per box/50 just for the premium bullet? Manufacturers love the people who say, "I'll stick with my HST's!" because their customer has bought into an upsell of extra cost for extra performance that the everyday, non LEO, non .gov person will most likely never use/need/require.)

    3) They need velocity to expand well (and don't expand as well in short barreled handguns or 40/45 offerings)

    Look at these two, for instance.
    https://www.luckygunner.com/9-mm-115-gr-jhp-remington-htp-50-rounds#geltest
    https://www.luckygunner.com/9-mm-plus-p-115-gr-jhp-remington-htp-50-rounds#geltest

    The extra 30fps of the +P ammo was the difference between inconsistent expansion with additional penetration and consistent expansion with more consistent penetration within the 18" threshold.

    4) As you can see, traditional JHP's aren't "gel test pretty" or "barrier blind" like new, premium bullet designs. Compare the HTP's above with these photogenic safety blossoms (haha): https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-124-grain-jhp-hst-federal-premium-20-rounds#geltest


    I would posit that traditional 115gr 9mm JHP's are no less effective in terminal performance than premium JHP's. However, profit margin, advertising, consistent expansion, LEO and .gov sales, pretty gel test results are the reasons why traditional JHP's are not talked about more.

    (Additionally, PH was impressed with 9mm 115/124gr Sig Sauer Elite Performance, which is a "hyper ammo!" Go figure.)
     
  8. golden

    golden Member

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    The REMINGTON 115 grain 9m.m. jhp works, not well, but it does work. If it is all you can get, then go with it. Use it in a GLOCK 17, SIG 226 or BERTTA 92 and the longer barrel will make it work even better. I use it all the time as practice ammo for when I want to make sure a gun will shoot hollowpoint after running a load of fmj (non-expanding ball) ammo to start with. This load has a good balance of power and not to strong recoil.
    It works even better when you buy the +P version of this round that costs almost twice a much. The +P with get at least another 100 feet per second with harder recoil, LOUDER muzzle blast and brighter flash.
    I have carried both the standard pressure and +P 115 grain hollow point and it is a good round for what you are paying.

    I use a premium round for carry, FEDERAL 124 grain HST jhp which has much better expansion. Other good rounds are the GOLDEN SABRE, which my agency used to issue and the GOLD DOT.

    Jim
     
  9. IdaD

    IdaD Member

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    For civilian defensive purposes in 9mm and up, I doubt there's much difference in effectiveness in Remington or Winchester baseline JHPs and more expensive hyper ammo, especially in 4" and longer barrels. I will concede that the premium ammo probably makes more of a difference in shorter barrels or in law enforcement applications where you are trying to accomplish more than getting a bad guy to stop attacking and run.
     
  10. Smokepole14

    Smokepole14 Member

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    I keep Hornady critical defense in my glock 43. I think it has the best controllable recoil an the red insert keeps the hollowpoint from plugging. Especially with colder weather coming and thicker jackets. I did watch the ph video of why he doesn’t like “hyper ammo” and I have to say I agree with some of his points. He has good arguments and the price point for the same effectiveness makes sense. I think the marketing makes the new self defense ammo triumph over the older stuff like Remington and wwb. I’m not worried about the barrier blind bullets like law enforcement. If I shoot somebody through a car its prolly not gonna look like self defense in court. I’ll just stick with my Hornady critical defense and may get some of the g/w box for practice and so forth. However I do think regardless of what hollow point bullet you use, any jhp traveling 1100 fps will ruin anybody’s day. It’ll put a hole there that wasn’t previously there.
     
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  11. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I've got about 6 boxes of it, it feeds and fires well in my Kahrs, so I use it as SD practice ammos. I may even have some loaded up in mags, not sure, though. Really, at the end of the day, in a SD situation, it can't do any worse than FMJ...
     
  12. huntsman

    huntsman Member

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    I carry it, 100 rounds at WM for $29.00

    As to why others don’t I can’t answer but I do believe marketing works.
     
  13. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

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    I can't speak about UMC G/W or 9mms, but WWB .45 230gr JHP in the 1911 checks all the right boxes for my defensive needs.
     
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  14. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I've carried this stuff in my 9mm guns for years, though one is now loaded with Winchester's 115-grain "Defend" round just because it was what was available, and for the same price, at Bass Pro.

    I also carried the .380 version (88 grain, I think?) in my Bersa Thunder before I switched to the PF9 currently carried.

    They've always run in my guns (I think my Ruger P95 still has the R-UMC stuff in it.)
     
  15. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    For 115 gr. 9mm I get 80 % FMJ target ammo and 20% Speer Gold Dot and fire them in those percentages.

    I will need to check out the Remington. Thanx :)
     
  16. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    Some people believe that the more you spend on something, the better it is compared to something cheaper. One of the best JHP options for .40 is the Winchester Bonded stuff that you can get for $22/50 rds. It's the same stuff LEO uses and has been street proven for decades, but because it doesn't cost $1/round, I'm sure there are some who will call it old technology and not as good as HST or PDX1.

    About the only meaningful thing stuff like HST does it is makes the bullets look prettier compared to the low end JHP ammo like UMC or Winchester White Box. That said, does HST work better after being shot through a barrier like drywall or car door/windshield? Yes, but I don't think we'll be doing that.
     
  17. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    One of my frat brothers, an economics major, once told it that economic principal was called the Theory Of Perverse Pricing. Not sure who cane up with the term, but the idea that a more costly thing is better than a cheaper thing has been selling name brand everythings for decades.
    To me the thing that does what I need it to do is best. That said I didn't mind spending more for Hornady premium HP's for my carry gun as I don't anticipate having to replace them for quite awhile. At defensive distances, distances where one can logically and legally explain using lethal force, the point of impact of practice ammo and the point of impact of the serious stuff is not going to be vastly different Perhaps at 50 yards or more, the angle of POA and POI would differ sufficiently to matter, but not in 20 feet. IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  18. kenboyles72

    kenboyles72 Member

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    Agreed, if one item performs just as good, sometimes better, than another at a higher price, I see no point in buying the higher priced item. More often, the one buying the more expensive item just likes to brag that they spent X$$ on it. Other times, it's just the idea of something being better cause it cost more, which leads to the person thinking they are better than others that spend less on an item. I have several firearms that would be on the very bottom of most folk's list or not at all. But they perform flawlessly and have lasted for many years.

    On the second point, yes different ammo will have a shift in POI, but this also depends on the firearm. One firearm may shoot a fairly close POA/POI, while another will be all over the place. I have one pistol that shoots pretty close with my carry ammo, federal aluminum case ammo, monarch steel case ammo and the remington umc. This is at self defense distances, 10 yrds and less. Then I have another that is finicky about what I run through it. This is where point one comes in, you can buy a lot of different ammo and see which shoot closer to same POI.
     
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  19. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    Sorry, didn't proofread my post before posting. I edited just now to be more of what I intended to say.
     
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  20. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I was a big fan of the UMC 135gr scalloped half jacket 38+p. I shot ALOT of that in unscientific testing and IDPA through a 4" 19-3. Very clean and accurate and seemed to open up well in the various mediums I put them into. Don't remember when I last saw a box of it though.
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I won't touch any 9x19mm under 124gr., and prefer 147gr. I use Winchester White Box 147gr. JHPs. I used to get them at Walmart. I suppose I'll have to get them mail order or at gun shows now. I don't think the only local dealer I like carries it.
     
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  22. Smokepole14

    Smokepole14 Member

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    You should be able to find a good deal online, what’s ur reasoning for liking the heavier weight bullets in 9mm? Just curious, I’ve carried 124 gr before
     
  23. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Penetration. I'll use 124s, but prefer 147s. I find them more accurate too, probably due to the long bearing surface.
     
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  24. Smokepole14

    Smokepole14 Member

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    I agree! Doesn’t do any good to expand and not reach any vitals
     
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  25. Lucky Derby

    Lucky Derby Member

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    You might try talking to that dealer. He/she may be able to order it for you and that way you can support a local small business. Win/win
     
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