Rendering aid to someone you just shot (moved from Legal)

[Old Dog]

^^^^ Good post, DeepSouth. Concur 100%. In my original post, I made some "if" statements. Interesting that a couple here believe they'd be too rattled in the aftermath of a deadly force encounter to do anything constructive, regardless of whether they had clear opportunity to provide aid. Others, just excuses and rationalization.

A first responder of my acquaintance to a motor vehicle collision in which a wrong-way driving, three-time DUI subject killed a couple young kids, being cognizant of the state of the occupants of the other vehicle, and having to render aid to this POS while he was crying that he was hurting, sorry and wanted his mommy ...didn't turn his back in hopes the drunk driver would bleed out; no, he rendered compassionate first aid after extracting the driver from the mangled wreck before EMS (which had been delayed by a multitude of calls in a small district that night) ... quietly answered my questions by saying he answered to a higher authority.

Another cop I know had to shoot a 17-year-old boy who had committed an armed robbery ... with an airsoft pistol. The boy indeed did cry, "Help me," apparently in the belief that everyone who suffers a GSW dies ... this cop rendered what aid he could, on the spot (covered by his partner, of course) until EMS arrived within a few minutes.

This world is a wicked place full of wicked people who do wicked things. The moral bar is set pretty low, the legal bar even lower.

So, having acknowledged that -- do we simply accept this at face value, or do we strive to be better than that? What would Jesus do? (Sorry, couldn't resist ... but I am trying, in my old age, to be a better man.)

 

[Frank Ettin]

Maybe Frank will come along with a legal opinion on rendering first aid to a wounded assailant....

First, as is usually the case there is no categorically correct answer -- from a legal perspective or otherwise.

First, possible legal issues include the risk of, and possible liability for, any harm done by mistakes made when trying to help. Good Samaritan laws in many States can mitigate the legal risks, but there is some variation from State-to-State.

Second, attempting to render aid could help for your self defense claim. But there are the practical considerations outlined by Odd Job in post 10, so rendering "hands-on" assistance might not be a good idea -- depending on the circumstances.

But at the very least one should be immediately reporting the incident (911) and requesting medical assistance.

This is a good discussion, but doesn't seem to be focusing on legal issues. So I'm moving the thread to General Discussion.

 

[Rayna]

I have given a lot of thought to this. For a short time I was an EMT, years ago. I live in the country. Emergency services, whether sheriff's dept. or medical, are going to take at least 20 minutes and possibly a good deal longer. I've read a couple of self defense accounts in which the bad guy ran outside and bled out in the yard.

If I and my family were safe and unharmed, I can't imagine listening to someone dying and not trying to do something. What something is the question. Tossing them a few towels and telling them to apply pressure might be the extent of it. I can't imagine getting close enough for CPR .

If I accidentally shot a truly innocent bystander I would do whatever I could, because that was my bullet and I'm responsible for it.

 

[jmorris]

+1 for calling 911, to me that is rendering aid. Step #1 in a medical emergency is to get someone to get help on the way. I carry quick clot in my truck but never used it more than training. Only gun shot wounds I have looked at for folks were self inflicted and luckily superficial in nature.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I like this answer. But I think once he is deceased it's a little late for prayer.


M

I disagree. It's never too late for prayer.

and ya never know.... Catching a bullet and then being helped by a would-be victim could be a defining moment for him, and call him to advocate for good. I do not know.

I don't wanna be a clichéd proselytizer, but....

What would Jesus do?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Jesus wouldn't have shot him in the first place. Turn the other cheek and all that.

I don't mean to sound anti religious but I was under the impression religion was one the off limits topics much like politics.

I feel like this thread is drifting. Honestly I thought it was more pertinent in the legal section.

 

[SamT1]

We were taught to shoot until they are dead. Your basically screwed if you just wound someone in self defense, they will bankrupt you in court. That’s still better than being dead or loosing family though.

Carrying med supplies is a very good idea though. You should never leave home without a simple kit. We’re always using or giving someone stuff out of my kit in the truck.
The simplest thing I have found is to take an old credit card or motel door card and wrap duck tape around it. It carries in your wallet and comes in very handy and a lot better than nothing.

 

[Deanimator]

You just tried to maim or murder me.

At that point, I owe you NOTHING.

Remember, after being shot by a North Miami cop for no quantifiable reason, health care worker Charles Kinsey was handcuffed and allowed to bleed out for 15-20 minutes with absolutely no medical assistance of ANY kind. You think I have a GREATER duty to assist somebody who just tried to slaughter me than the cops do to assist someone, who by their own admission, was COMPLETELY innocent?

The ONLY "aid" you're going to get from me is a call to 911.

My last medical training was in 1986 in the Army Reserve.

If you so profoundly lack good judgment and human decency, that you'd try to maim or murder me, why should I expect you to demonstrate any greater degree of judgment regarding intravenous drug use or unprotected sex? I don't carry the requisite protections from blood borne pathogens, and even if I did, I wouldn't use them to help YOU.

And even with "good samaritan" laws, you'll probably still try to sue me for improperly rendered aid, whether it was actually improperly rendered or not. In Ohio, you can't recover a penny from me for shooting you if the shooting is ruled justified. Why should I go out on a limb to play doctor for free?

Try to kill me and you're on your own. Treat yourself or wait for the paramedics.

 

[sota]

We were taught to shoot until they are dead. Your basically screwed if you just wound someone in self defense, they will bankrupt you in court. That’s still better than being dead or loosing family though.

Carrying med supplies is a very good idea though. You should never leave home without a simple kit. We’re always using or giving someone stuff out of my kit in the truck.
The simplest thing I have found is to take an old credit card or motel door card and wrap duck tape around it. It carries in your wallet and comes in very handy and a lot better than nothing.

I honestly hope you've not taken that to heart. "You shoot to stop the threat" is a better mentality to have. To paraphrase a clip from Clint Smith, you didn't shoot someone 9 times, you shot them 8 times and they kept coming (didn't stop) so you shot 'em a 9th time and THEN they stopped, and so did you.

As for rendering aid, I can honestly say that for broad strokes, I break it into 2 categories: I'm alone, or I'm with "friends."
If I'm alone then the chances of me rendering any "aid" after having just shot someone is extremely low; the probability they could still do me harm (playing possum) is high.
If I'm with "friends" then the chances of me rendering "aid" improves, as there would be someone there to "cover" me in case the bad person decides he still has some fight left.
As for the minutia, that's just too hard to develop.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

If I shot someone in self defense it would be because they had threatened me or someone close to me with death or serious harm.
The only medical attention I would offer would be to call 911.

 

[Steve S.]

When my wife and I took our CCW class, we sat around and listened to many side conversations (especially at lunch break) discussing the shooting of a “bad guy” - pumping rounds into their body until a sure death - blowing someone away for stealing their lawnmower from their garage - all accounts stated with a glee in their voice and a sparkle in their eye. I thought to myself, “No wonder the anti’s hate us - psychos legally carrying a deadly weapon!” Every man is some mother’s son - you help even the worst of them if you can.

 

[Spats McGee]

Could not the attempt to render aid be considered an omission of guilt or remorse? I mean an attorney will try to spin it in court. I mean it would also go to show that the intent was defense not murder. I can see it going both ways.

I guess in theory, a lawyer could try to spin it as an act to show guilt or remorse, but it would be a stretch, IMO. If I were the plaintiff/bad guy's lawyer, the conversation would probably include something to the following effect: "Let me get this straight. You pulled a knife on him, and he shot you, and now you want me to argue that the jury should give you money because he kept you alive after that?"

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

When my wife and I took our CCW class, we sat around and listened to many side conversations (especially at lunch break) discussing the shooting of a “bad guy” - pumping rounds into their body until a sure death - blowing someone away for stealing their lawnmower from their garage - all accounts stated with a glee in their voice and a sparkle in their eye. I thought to myself, “No wonder the anti’s hate us - psychos legally carrying a deadly weapon!” Every man is some mother’s son - you help even the worst of them if you can.

Those conversations you heard were about committing murder, not self defense.
The people having the conversations were not "us".

 

[GBExpat]

I just wonder how many gun owners consider this in a defensive shooting?

Prior to the the 911 Mob arriving on-scene, am I prepared to render medical assistance to some miscreant who has forced me to shoot them?

Yes, absolutely. I have 2 decent First Aid kits (w/gloves & masks) in the house and one in the truck.

IMO, once they are down and no longer a threat to me/mine, they are just a fellow human being in need of aid.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I guess in theory, a lawyer could try to spin it as an act to show guilt or remorse, but it would be a stretch, IMO. If I were the plaintiff/bad guy's lawyer, the conversation would probably include something to the following effect: "Let me get this straight. You pulled a knife on him, and he shot you, and now you want me to argue that the jury should give you money because he kept you alive after that?"

It’s a tangled web. Definitely one none of us ever wants to face.

 

[Spats McGee]

It’s a tangled web. Definitely one none of us ever wants to face.

Agreed.

 

[buck460XVR]

Odds are, I'd be in shock after such a traumatic experience and incapable of rendering aid to my attacker.

.........just sayin'.

 

[GAF]

In my neck of the woods EMS is 5 minutes or less away. Other than calling 911 I really don`t know what I would do for the criminal laying on my floor bleeding. I might be in a state of mind where I can only stand there and watch them bleed all over the new hardwood floors.

 

[jamesjames]

After a self defense use of firearm, it seems like you have multiple tasks to manage:

• take cover or get to a safe distance and call 911
• Continue OODA and watch for attacker's accomplices or friends. The fight may not be over.
• identify or secure witnesses
• preserve evidence at the scene
• make sure the attacker's weapons (including the knife in his pocket) are secured
• give aid to the attacker only if it is safe to do so

You have just been attacked and fought back. You have a huge adrenaline dump and tunnel vision. Your manual dexterity and fine motor control in your hands are compromised. Only if you can get your situation under control and can safely give aid should you do so. If you can organize any witnesses or bystanders to get involved or render aid, do it. If you can get them to work for you to preserve evidence and be witnesses to the event, you might be able to get them to help with first aid to the attacker, but that is a stretch. If you can take positive control of the situation, everything will go better in the first aid, police response, and incident investigation.

 

[Rob G]

It's unlikely there's anything in a standard first aid kit that's going to substantially change the odds of saving somebody going into hypovolemic shock from a gun shot wound. Unless of course you actually have some kind of quick clotting bandages or powder. Mostly the standard first aid for such an event is place an absorbent/occlusive material of some kind over the wound and hold pressure. It's nice if you have gauze but a shirt or towel will work just fine. CPR may become necessary at some point but you don't need anything for that except two hands and being relatively physically fit. Bear in mind that blood borne pathogens are a real thing and some of them are incredibly highly contagious. I would not touch somebody who's bleeding without gloves on, unless it was my wife, child, or somebody else I knew really well.

All this is to say that there is only a relatively slim chance that most people could actually do anything in the field with available materials that will greatly change a gunshot victim's outcome. And doing so could, unless proper protective gear is available, place the rescuer at risk of death or lifelong disability from blood borne pathogens. So I think you could make a solid argument either way both morally and in a court of law.

Also for those who have cited good samaritan laws bear something in mind, although laws may vary, in some states you may only be covered up to the level of your training. So don't get too crazy rendering aid only to end up sitting in court trying to explain to some lawyer how, on the basis of an hour long internet seminar, you thought you were competent to trach somebody in the field with a ball point pen.

 

[boom boom]

One word on approaching a wounded person apart from what else has been covered--knives.

 

[RPZ]

I have heard 2 things which I believe both of.

#1 You were attacked and ended the threat. Your engagement is done. You now make a decision on whether you should render aid or not, and Good Samaritan law comes into play.

#2 You shot the bad guy, and you relish in the moment. You take your sweet time about calling for aid because if HE had won he would leave you for dead, or would make sure you were before he left. You intentionally wait until your relatively sure the bad guy will not survive to tell his side of the story because dead men tell no tales...You can be facing serious charges.

My solid best answer is to report the gunfight from a safer location as soon as you can reach a location that is percieved to be safer. You will be in some emotional distress, ask for aid in that because you can't be expected to do anything when you are distressed from being involved in a gunfight.

You going to take your attacker(s)'s gun, knife, crowbar with you to this "safe location"?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Rendering physical aid increases the possibility of being harmed by the attacker, his/her biohazard fluids, or his/her accomplices, or by some well meaning and Good Sam who perceives me as a threat trying to finish the job.

After having remedied a situation very dangerous to me, why would I want to intentionally up the danger level to myself anew? Yeah, the attacker may be some mother's son. So am I and Mom likes me best.

I will call 911 when I am safe.

 

[herrwalther]

I did far more triage in combat than someone of my military occupation should have to do. That being the case I would not provide aid to someone I just shot in a self defense situation. If I am ever in the situation to use lethal force in defense of life, the justification of such pretty much goes out the window if you feel safe enough to render aid to the person you just shot.

 

[Danoobie]

I can only speak from personal experience, inasmuch as in 60 years I have never shot anyone, but have rendered assistance,
mechanical, medical, and otherwise, dozens of times.

My concerns, when rendering aid to a shot person:
1.-Previously mentioned blood-borne diseases. Many attackers are addicts, or live in conditions where diseases thrive
2.-The person may hold you accountable legally, for inexpert medical assistance.
3.-The person may have some fight left, and attempt to retaliate.