Renewed Terrorist Threat - What Are You Doing to Prepare (if anything)?

[Werewolf]

SteelyDan said:

Werewolf, your guess that I worship at the alter of political correctness is only fractionally as wrong as your apparent belief that premeditated murder can be justified on the grounds of immigration control.

Most here would agree that shooting someone entering your home illegaly and with intent to steal from you is justified. In Oklahoma that justification is codified by law.

Someone illegaly entering the United States with the intent of utilizing our health, education and other safety net systems is no different from the person illegally entering one's home with intent to steal. Both are criminals, both want that which is not theirs.

A society, a country, has the right to protect itself from those that mean to do it harm. Shooting illegal immigrants coming across the border is no different from one shooting a burglar illegally entering one's home.

It is in my opinion sheer hypocrisy to say one action is OK but the other is not.

 

[Art Eatman]

Werewolf, seems to me your view stems in large part from frustration with the lack of border controls by our federal government. It's the old bit where people justifiably wonder about who is to do what when "duly constituted authority" refuses to act.

The problem with just upping and shooting is that the assumption is made that All Are Bad, if they try to come across. Some may be would-be terrorists; some may be looking for the giveaway supports our Nanny State offers, but most are just looking for work in order to send money home to the wife so she can feed the kids.

I have, in the parlance, "worked wetbacks," and have a certain sympathy for them as well as respect.

I have also ranched, and know full well the difficulties of maintaining water supplies in a desert. I am totally in sympathy with the ranchers in Arizona and understand the problems they have with the illegals. Were I there, I'd feel a strong urge to shoot.

Howsomever, that ain't the right answer.

Art

 

[DonNikmare]

Werewolf & WhiteKnight, you two need some Sensitivity Training!







































Just Kidding. I knew that would get you going

I wouldn't go as far as calling it "murder". I'm sure that if that policy was ever adopted, there would be plenty of warning signs posted in both eniglish and spanish as well as some other languages. Knowing how sensative the US goverment can be they'd probably have running multi language recordings for those who can't read.

If I decide to take a walk into area 51 or other such area while ignoring the warning signs and some soldier shoots me, he would not be murdering me, just doing his job. I'd be committing suicide.

There is too much sensitivity, too much trying to understand why the criminals/ terrorists are doing what they are doing. There isn't enough action. There also isn't enough tolerance of fellow Americans with opposing to PC crap views. If you have been at a major undergraduate or graduate institution in the last 10 years, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I wouldn't go as far as calling it "murder".

I would. And so would any reasonable man, or 12 reasonable men on any jury anywhere. Shooting an unarmed person who has done nothing more than cross a border in the desert without any malicious intent is cold blooded first degree murder in my book. Frankly, as a fellow gun owner, I'm ashamed of you. Lethal force is to be used ONLY, ONLY against lethal force.

I don't like illegal immigration and its consequences any more than you do. However, your ire needs to be directed at your elected representatives who not only allow, but encourage illegal immigration through incentives such as free healthcare and welfare, etc., ad nauseum. WITH YOUR MONEY.

 

[Joey2]

I will be cowering in the corner waiting for the knock on the door and a voice on the other side saying, " I'am from the government and I'am here to hep ya."

 

[Werewolf]

Lethal force is to be used ONLY, ONLY against lethal force.

When speaking about a private citizen and his/her right to use lethal force I would tend to agree with what you've said with some caveats that aren't really germane to this discussion.

However, a society, state, government or other legally recognized and sanctioned authority does not now or have they ever had to play by the same rules as those that an individual does regarding lethal force. Governments kill people all the time. It isn't murder when it is done to protect the society the governent serves. It is in fact a moral imperative that governments use what ever means is available to them right up to and including lethal force to protect the society it is bound to serve.

[rant mode on]

Regarding those who illegaly cross our borders. THEY ARE CRIMINALS WHO ARE BREAKING OUR LAWS AND STEALING FROM OUR SOCIETY. In fact the only difference there is between them and an invading army is the invading army does less damage in the long run. We'd shoot an invading army, we shoot those who invade our homes. Why don't we shoot invading illegals? Is shooting them as they cross the border a correct and moral thing to do? Maybe - maybe not.

My original point was that as draconian as the solution is it would work - at least as far as eliminating repeaters.

It is entirely irrelevant that illegals just want a better life. The United States and it's citizens are not bound either legally or morally to provide it for them. If they want a better life then they are welcome to work within their own societies to improve it. If they can't or aren't willing and they want in the United States then they should follow the proper procedures. If they can't do that and they still try to come in they're criminals - pure and simple.

Currently we round 'em up and in many, many cases don't even send 'em back when they're ID's as illegals. Well I'm tired of my tax dollars going to support them. I'm tired of my tax dollars going to government grants so they can start new businesses while US Citizens don't qualify for the same benefit. I'm tired of my country being the mommy, daddy, teacher, doctor and cop to the world!

And I've written to Mr Bush and both Senators and my congressman to complain about our open borders and especially Bush's proposed PC, vote getting amnesty. But I'm just one middle class guy - they don't listen to me.

[rant mode off]

 

[JeepDriver]

My basement is well stocked.

I have 5 cases of water, 3 cases of beer, plenty of venison and canned foods, TP is stocked up as well a 2 liter bottles of Mountain Dew.

Propane stoves, grill and lantern are all in good working order.

Over 10,000 rounds of assorted ammo on hand, most of which is 5.56, 7.62 (x39 & x51), 9mm & 12ga.

But that's just a day to day thing for me. I haven't really done anything new. I may grab a few more cases of beer and water......

 

[Tamara]

Werewolf,

The US' historical "come on in" attitude towards immigration had it's roots in pragmatism. The US is a huge country. It needed people to build it and make it work. Well now we've got all the people we need. We don't need anymore and the "come on in" attitude has got to go. We don't need anyone else's "huddled masses" - we've got plenty of our own to take care of now.

I gotta hand it to you, it takes an immense amount of stones (as well as a complete absence of tact) to toss off something like that on a board run by Oleg Volk.


DonNikmare,

I have a hard time understanding the open borders deal. ... I grew up in a closed border country.

Trust me when I say that most Americans would rather not see the US run like Bulgaria, okay?

 

[DonNikmare]

Trust me when I say that most Americans would rather not see the US run like Bulgaria, okay?

Nobody is talking about running the US as Bulgaria was run. It's a matter of common sense. There are thousands of people who would like to come in to the US for terrorist purposes. As things are now, they can easily sneak in from Mexico or Canada. I'm simply saying that closed borders make sense. People from other contries would continue to be able to come in to the US - they would just be forced to do it legally.

It has taken Israel thousands of dead and many many terrorist attacks to get where they are. They are trying to 'close a border' by building a wall and recently did kill some palestinians who were trying to get through by digging tunnels. I in no way thought it was "murder".

I'm not condoning shooting people illegally trying to cross the border. I am saying that doing so is within the realm of things the government has the right to do. It is extreme but not totally unexceptable.

I also don't think having closed borders will limmit americans' freedom and right to travel. At least not while americans still have the right to elect their government.

Nik

 

[DesertEagle613]

"It has taken Israel thousands of dead and many many terrorist attacks to get where they are. They are trying to 'close a border' by building a wall and recently did kill some palestinians who were trying to get through by digging tunnels. I in no way thought it was "murder"."

A few points:

1. The wall is intended not to seal off Gaza in the sense that you mean, but to act as a regulatory tool. Thousands of Gazans cross into Green Line Israel every day to work, passing through the checkpoints to do so. The suicide bombers are (ideally) stopped at the checkpoint.

While such a border would make sense for America in the abstract, it's much harder to build up a border thousands of miles long than one about 100 miles long. Perhaps the money and effort is worth it, but I would start by restricting Welfare and similar programs first.

2. The reason that lethal force was used against the Palestinians was not merely because they were "digging tunnels," but because of what they were bringing through them, namely, anti-tank rockets and similar heavy weaponry. Disrupting simple human-smuggling networks is given a shamefully low priority in Israel, which has become a central hub in organized crime-run prostitution rings. (The sooner that these are smashed, the better for everyone...:banghead: )

There seems little evidence that aliens from Mexico (aside from druggies) want anything more than jobs or money. The terror networks deployed on 9/11 largely entered the country from other avenues. If we should get specific warning of a terror infiltration, it would justify lethal force, but using such force on simple illegals is grossly disproportionate.

In the end, defensive measures are only partly efffective against asymmetrical warfare, because the BG's will keep looking for a target until they find one. The key is counterinsurgency, in a flexible form to match the flexible enemy.

 

[Werewolf]

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