Rethinking the 7.62x39mm

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've been shooting 6.8 SPC for a while. Interesting cartridge, but the more I use it, the more I want to try 6.5 Grendel.
 
ARHammer, there is a huge difference between a black powder based cartridge and one that is developed to black powder standards and pressures.

A 38 special or 45/70 is a black powder based cartridge.
Where the 30-06 is not, but is might have been based on the standards and pressures of that day.


OBTW, Keep it on the High Road.


You'all be sweet now, Ya hear.
 
Ithaca37 said: Scoring hits on vital organs is what matters, all this yaw/fragmenting stuff is purely academic.

I've been studying many different sources on this for some time, and I'd say you're half right. Hitting a vital organ is the most important thing, but you often get marginal hits, where the amount of tissue damage makes the difference between a minor wound and a serious one. A bigger exit hole also lets the blood out faster (the drop in blood pressure being the primary cause of unconsciousness).

In the early days of smokeless powder rifle cartridges, the first military bullets were full-jacket round-nose. These bullets were inherently quite stable, and just drilled straight through, often leaving a neat and tidy wound. The British were concerned about the sharp drop in effectiveness of the .303 compared with the old lead-bullet .450 Martini-Henry round, so developed a hollow-point version of the bullet (first invented at the Dum Dum arsenal in India). This became standard issue, until the Hague Convention banned bullets designed to expand. Not long after, pointed bullets came into vogue to improve the ballistics, but a side-effect was that the bullets were unstable, and turned over on entering a body, significantly widening the wound channel and often causing a bigger exit hole. Concerns about the .303's effectiveness promptly ended.

All pointed bullets will turn over like this, but the speed with which they do it depends on their size (the smaller, the faster) and their detailed design. If they break up as well, that further magnifies the size of the wound and the chance of hitting something vital.
 
QUESTION: If the 7.62x39 is so bad can you cite some anecdotal evidence? I know anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything, but I can find you a ton of stuff about 5.56 failing to stop people quickly. Can you do it for the x39? Surely there must be some stories if it such a marginal man stopper as you claim.
It's not that it's "so bad," it's that Russian M43 FMJ is unusually resistant to yaw, so that M43 in Vietnam tended to cause wounds fairly similar to 9mm FMJ, which is to say quite minor as rifles go, as Dr. Fackler has observed in print.

For defensive purposes, civilians can use JHP or SP loads that do a much better job of energy transfer than M43 FMJ, with less overpenetration.
 
This is the same crew who shot a suspect with a burst from a P90 and had him ask them to stop shooting him.

Too funny.

As for not being aware of how gov. procurement works, I am not an expert but have a general idea. I know they don't choose the best stuff based on performance, but I think the Secret service probably thinks about the weapons they pick just a little bit. I don''t think it would go over too well if the prez died because they couldn't shoot a bad guy to death with their crappy guns.

I'd say you're half right. Hitting a vital organ is the most important thing, but you often get marginal hits, where the amount of tissue damage makes the difference between a minor wound and a serious one.

OK, all I am saying is that a vital organ hit is the most important component of a lethal force encounter. Do any of you hunt? Even if you don't you are probably familiar with the fact that a gut shot deer does not drop. The most effective bullet designs (expanding ones of various designs) are used for hunting. These are going to create the greatest tissue disruption. Yet, when not shot in nervous system or cardiovascular system, a deer (which is similar in size to a human) does not die quickly and will run off into the woods. However, there are people who have taken deer with .22's with correct shot placement, the bullet size and/or design becomes less significant.
 
Fragmenting bullets increase the chance of hitting something vital. Unless a vital organ is significantly damages, the mechanism of death is typically blood loss. BHowever, vertain organs are particularly vulnerable to damage from high energy rounds (the liver comes to mind). These organs can be severely compromised by transferring a lot of energy in a short interval. This is best accomplish by a bullet that expands, tumbles or fragments.

BTW, bullet yaw or upset achieves similar effects to expanding bullets. A kawing bullet has it effective frontal cross section increased to the length of the projectile. Stable bullets drill right on through.

Finally, which a deer is similar in size, they - and most wild animals - are in far better 'shape' than the typical human. Physical fitness has a great deal to do with the ability to absorb punishment and resist shock (although there is no straight correlation)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top