Retro Carry Guns & The Stigma Surrounding Them

[unclenunzie]

This is like a fun argument people have over coffee, and when they are done they talk about something else. It just doesn't matter much.

The real innovations in modernized firearms development were in the fields of reliable ignition systems (presently at centerfire primers), cartridges, smokeless powder, repeaters, Browning locked breeches, and yes, the Glock safe action. Every one of these innovations built on a need and fulfilled by very smart, dedicated people.

In 2022 on a regular basis I carry a Glock derived pistol (origin early 1980's, mine made in 2021), and an S&W airweight or similar (origin 1950, mine made 60-70 years later). I'm perfectly happy with the function and purpose of each of these. The designs are retro as a person may perceive, yet modern enough to suit me.

The implication from perhaps some folks is that retro means obsolete. By any reasonable account black powder firearms are obsolete, but they are still fun and certainly can be functional even today. It's just that as modern people we demand more from our tools. I own and enjoy black powder guns but for carry/defense I draw the line at smokeless cartridge guns in an adequate caliber with appropriate modern safety features. Such as drop safe designs, striker/FP blocks in a pistol and hammer blocks in a revolver.

I own a couple Colt 1903s, one made in 1919 and the other 1934. I don't carry either one but I enjoy owning and shooting them. If this were 1922 and not 2022, I probably would carry one or the other, as a discreet option with my pocket watch, pinstripe suit and fedora.

 

[.455_Hunter]

The real innovations in modernized firearms development were in the fields of reliable ignition systems (presently at centerfire primers), cartridges, smokeless powder, repeaters, Browning locked breeches, and yes, the Glock safe action. Every one of these innovations built on a need and fulfilled by very smart, dedicated people.

I would generally agree with your posting except the bolded statement. Different- somewhat, Improvement- very questionable. In addition, the designers at Roth and IJ would have been less than impressed with the supposed "innovation" of the "Safe Action".

 

[kje54]

deleted

 

[starling]

.

I own a couple Colt 1903s, one made in 1919 and the other 1934. I don't carry either one but I enjoy owning and shooting them. If this were 1922 and not 2022, I probably would carry one or the other, as a discreet option with my pocket watch, pinstripe suit and fedora.

And under the current mindset of many that would be foolish as gangsters were running around with Thompsons and Whipit guns. Clearly one would at least need a 1911 to be considered "operator black belt" back then.

I agree on the coffee talk. We are all firearm enthusiests here. No need to be trying to divide ourselves.

Basic rule of thumb for me is respect firearms (all makes and models) and respect people (including the bad ones). Anything other and you are asking for trouble IMO. A crackhead with a screwdriver can sneak up and kill you if you dont respect them. As can a projectile launching slingshot. Ego and CCWs do not make good bedfellows.

Of course you dont want to be paranoid all day walking around with a hair trigger either so having good balance plays into things quite a bit. Manners, being curtious, learning to keep your mouth shut .... all good practices for CCW holders to practice.

Unfortunately manners are kind of retro these days as well. We kinda need to do something about that IMO as a whole. CCW holders would be a good starting point. My guess is most of us here already do.. just need to keep promoting it. As CCW holders I think we should be setting the standard.

Example... Was at Lowes not to long ago and a lady was open carrying a Sccy. I told her... "Nice Sccy you have there... good pistols...American Made". It made her day from her reaction. I didnt say "HEY... thats retro.. you need a this or that" yada, yada yada. MINES BETTER THAN YOURS!

 

[unclenunzie]

But you were thinking it

 

[starling]

I would generally agree with your posting except the bolded statement. Different- somewhat, Improvement- very questionable. In addition, the designers at Roth and IJ would have been less than impressed with the supposed "innovation" of the "Safe Action".

They are perfectly safe as long as you do everything perfectly all the time. Problem is even machines cant do that let alone people with emotions. If only life were that simple.... things would always be perfect. In reality life is messy and there are endless variables. There is a reason I promote true DAO for CCWs.

 

[starling]

But you were thinking it

Nah... I am the farthest enthusiest you will ever meet in terms of firearm snobbery. I hate that crap.

Clerk revolvers.... those were garbage. There ... I came up with one. Those should only be collected for display purposes. They should not be shot.

Theres a few bad apples out there (most people never heard of them) but Kelgren Sccys are not one of those. Sccy/P11 design is the modern version of the DAO snubnose IMO. Its pretty genius as far as I am concerned.

 

[unclenunzie]

I own one myself (sccy), got it from Davidson's specifically because of the guarantee, and the price. The design is good, the execution is low cost. If I had little money but badly needed a pistol immediately, I'd buy one, although today there are better for similar money. I think that's it's niche, low cost for those in need. I mean they are cheaper today than when I got mine. Random internet search shows $184.99 before a rebate. That and couple boxes of 50 JHP, duct tape and carboard gets a carry rig for less than I paid in 2015, about 260.

 

[starling]

I own one myself (sccy), got it from Davidson's specifically because of the guarantee, and the price. The design is good, the execution is low cost. If I had little money but badly needed a pistol immediately, I'd buy one, although today there are better for similar money. I think that's it's niche, low cost for those in need. I mean they are cheaper today than when I got mine. Random internet search shows $184.99 before a rebate. That and couple boxes of 50 JHP, duct tape and carboard gets a carry rig for less than I paid in 2015, about 260.

Get a trigger with an overtravel screw (around $30) and steel magazine catch (again $30) and its a whole nother level of pistol. The magazine follower and spring are a little flawed but thats an easy enough fix. Why they did that to the magazine is beyond me. Most of the accuracy problems people have from the P11 design stem from the overtravel on the trigger. The design itself is a favorite of mine.

 

[jdc1244]

Smith/Colt snub revolver.

Both of which are subject to scorn by many today – or at least considered to be ‘insufficient.’

 

[trackskippy]

They are only really insufficient if you need more than 5 or 6 rounds, or you have some sort of stoppage, which, isnt unheard of if you shoot them enough and run into it. That doesn't happen all that often, but it can and does, and you are usually DRT when it does.

My favorite revolvers to shoot are a couple of older 2" and 2.5" S&W Model 10's and 19's. For me, they are the sweet spot in the snubbies.

 

[DR505]

Seriously though, if you know you're going to be in a gunfight, are you showing up with a pistol? any pistol? and only a pistol?

In the academy I had a firearms instructor who had been in several gunfights. His advice, if I knew I were going to be in a gunfight tomorrow, call in sick. He did not recommend the experience at all.

 

[Archie]

My grandparents had at least one handgun in their house in the early part of the 20th Century. They were gentle souls, serious Christians (not pretend) and they had no place for break ins or violence. Probably a revolver; my late father mentioned a 'revolver', but that was also his word for any handgun, so it's hard to tell. However the times seem to lean toward a revolver as they were not hobbyists nor wealthy.
My grandmother - according to legend - sent a man, commonly thought "...up to no good" away the neighborhood one evening. She did not shoot him, but convinced him she was willing at need.

No other tales are told. But my ancestors were serious about such things. They had the best firearms available in their price range at the time.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Define "retro" ? 100 or so years ago, a new S&W M&P would have been very "in". An M1911. I think what we're talking about is low cost-low budget. The less fashionable makes that have fallen by the wayside, are out of fashion with us "sophisticates", using out of fashion rounds-38 S&W, e.g. The store and house brands. The Model Ts of their day.

 

[film495]

In the academy I had a firearms instructor who had been in several gunfights. His advice, if I knew I were going to be in a gunfight tomorrow, call in sick. He did not recommend the experience at all.

sounds like a wise man

 

[JohnKSa]

In short, how many of us got to be here today because of our kin carrying protection that we scorn today ???

We are all almost certainly alive today as a result of the outcome of a fight in the distant past that involved spears, swords, rocks, clubs, chariots, atlatls, single-shot muzzle-loading firearms, daggers, slings, bows, weapons adapted from farming implements, etc.

All of those weapons will still kill a person just as dead today as they did back when they were the peak of human weapon technology.

There’s a stigma today because they don’t work as well today as what is available today.

So it makes sense to take the current state of technology into account when we develop a self-defense strategy? Next you'll be trying to convince us that a lead ball fired from a single-shot smoothbore muzzle-loader will have no effect on an attacker.

 

[Riomouse911]

We are all almost certainly alive today as a result of the outcome of a fight in the distant past that involved spears, swords, rocks, clubs, chariots, atlatls, single-shot muzzle-loading firearms, daggers, slings, bows, weapons adapted from farming implements, etc.

All of those weapons will still kill a person just as dead today as they did back when they were the peak of human weapon technology.So it makes sense to take the current state of technology into account when we develop a self-defense strategy? Next you'll be trying to convince us that a lead ball fired from a single-shot smoothbore muzzle-loader will have no effect on an attacker.

Atlatl, man there is a blast from the past! My family was very influenced by Southwestern Native history, and my parents fancies drifted about from petroglyphs to baskets to blankets to weaponry and back.

I recall making an atlatl with 4’ darts when I was a kid. (I used 5/8” dowels for the shafts and turkey feather for fletching.) I launched those things all over a square-block sized open lot that was beyond the church behind our house.

And while the atlatl could be effective in the hands of someone who knew how to use it well (not me), today I would rather rely on my more modern devices, thanks.

Stay safe.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Nothing for me to scorn at, there's simply no reason to. I mean that if you're not carrying it, then what's the problem? Boom, there isn't one.

Plus I would never mock anyone carrying something that either isn't for me or not liked. Pretty sure that I wouldn't want to be outgunned into the grave by the Bob Munden's of this world, by not giving them any respect for a potential capability that many self defense enthusiasts pretend that they've got. lol, imagine the incredible irony of a revolver, pocket gun, 1911, DA/SA, or a caliber hater getting smoked by the very things that they get mouthy about, LMAO.

Anyway, firearms development history is a nerdy hobby of mine, I like knowing how we got to where we are from the past. So things like when I pick up a polymer lower striker fired semi, I can say with factual certainty that all polymer strikers are an HK copy and then give the history of who invented the striker, who was the first to put a striker into a semiauto pistol, and who was the first to do it using a polymer lower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Munden

 

[Tallball]

A Model 10 and a 1911 are both "retro". They've been in continuous production for over 100 years. I would carry either one, no problem.

In fact, a Model 10 variant is sitting next to me as I type. It's my "nightstand gun".

 

[Ethan Verity]

I would generally agree with your posting except the bolded statement. Different- somewhat, Improvement- very questionable. In addition, the designers at Roth and IJ would have been less than impressed with the supposed "innovation" of the "Safe Action".

The Glock safe action trigger is a momentum drop safety that prevents the trigger, or heavier metal trigger bar, from being able to pull itself on sudden rearward impact with the ground. Thus, making a drop safe gun with a relatively light trigger that doesn't require a manual or grip safety.

A lot of people think the trigger safety is just so the trigger can't be pulled if you only snag the outer edges of the trigger, which is an unlikely scenario for any real benefit anyway... if that really were the only purpose of the safety trigger, than it would indeed be a lame "innovation"... but it's not.

 

[jar]

Ya see there... thats no good. Cant even mount a red dot on it. Might as well just throw rocks

Nice looking 732 BTW. MADE IN THE USA!!

I did mount a white dot on it. Used some pearl white nail polish on the front sight.

 

[starling]

I did mount a white dot on it. Used some pearl white nail polish on the front sight.

I call that "practical tactical". Helps some newer generation owners to understand. If it was a beater shooter you could throw some rubber bands on the grips but that 732 is too nice looking for that.

 

[CDW4ME]

Three decades ago it would have been rare for defensive shootings to be caught on video.
Peoples defensive handgun choices were influenced by what people told them, what they read in books, magazines.
Now, there are videos showing someone take 5-6 rounds of 9mm and not be quickly incapacitated.

I bought a Glock 26 when it first came out mid 1990's, 10+ rounds of 9mm in a easily concealed* handgun. (easily concealed but not pocket size)
~30 years ago I don't think there were any "pocket size" 9mm pistols. I had a Seecamp 32 long ago and subsequently a P3AT 380 (neither anymore).
Along comes Kahr with the PM9/CM9 and now one has 9mm in a "pocket size" handgun.
More subcompact 9mm pistols were invented like the Sig 365 / Hellcat that offer 10+ rounds 9mm and are easily concealed.

30 years ago we (me & wife) had a Walther PPKs 380 which brutally punished the web of my hand.
Now I have a Sig 365 which is smaller, lighter, holds more bullets, doesn't punish my hand, and is 9mm instead of 380.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/walther-ppk-s-vs-sig-sauer-p365

Stigma? No, not the right term. Look at my options then vs now.
Instead of a Seecamp 32 or a P3AT 380 for "pocket gun" (back-up) now I can have a PM9
Instead of a PPKs 380 for sub-compact I had a Glock 26 then a Sig 365.

My philosophy is "best I can do" not "better than nothing".
If I was limited to pocket carry (thankfully I'm not) the PM9 would be "best I can do" versus the 32/380 options I had in the past.
If I weighed 180# (I don't anymore) and wore snugger fitting shirts (I can't stand snug fit) a Sig 365 might be "best I can do" vs the 380 PPKs years ago.

Some people, I'm one of them, don't see a reason to go less than 9mm to defend themself given the options available today that didn't exist before.

 

[Capybara]

Carry what you want, none of anyone else's business. I carried my P64, CZ82 and my Bulgarian Makarov for a few years. I find today though
that my Shields and Ruger Max 9 have more options for round count, carry a more powerful caliber, are lighter in weight and the Ruger
has an option for a red/green dot, which I am still experimenting with to decide if I want to carry with a red/green dot.

If all I had were the steel Combloc pistols, I would carry them still. But the plastic stuff offers more features and advantages. I would never look down on
someone who carries a revolver though. As far as calibers, based upon the FBBI gel tests, .25 and .32 are not very good carry cartridges if you can carry
.380 or 9mm in comparison, but .25 and .32 have killed plenty of people throughout history, so shot placement, yada, yada. But to me, most of the people who carry those calibers likely don't practice ass often as they should so there is that.

 

[Outlaw75]

Yep, they did get by with .25's and .32's back then, but they weren't under threat of being attacked by these Bruce Lee/John Wick/Terminator combination attackers that everyone's worried about now a days.