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Retro Carry Guns & The Stigma Surrounding Them

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Mr. Mosin, Oct 21, 2022.

  1. starling

    starling Member

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    Maybe think in terms of this...

    Sometimes winning is just surviving. We are talking defensive pistols now so even just a 25 can be benefitial... optimal... no. Optimal would be a shotgun or rifle but thats kind of hard to tote around. A small pocket auto 1. Lets the aggressor know your willing to defend yourself and 2. Can help create an opportunity for you to get away. Put yourself in the mind of a criminal... not necessarily a killer or assasin. Your average criminal wants an easy target that doesnt or cant fight back. A small DEFENSIVE pistol can provide that edge. Nobody likes bullets flying in there direction... not even predators...not even 25acp, black powder etc. etc.

    Again... winning in defense is just surviving. Now if we start talking OFFENSIVE firearms... thats a whole different story. I wouldnt want to be stuck with just a 25 or 32 in Grizzly bear country. Luckily humans are not giant monsters.

    Hunting deer is an offensive action. CCW carrying is a defensive action. Seems like a LOT of people these days want to make it out to be a competition or gunslinger/gunfighter type scenario. That kind of mindset is kinda shakey IMO in civilian non LE CCW roles.

    Of course we live in times of crazy scenarios with mass shooters etc. so its nice to have more bases covered of course. The likelyhood of tht kind of event is a lot less than a mugging or typical aussault. Its just up to the individual to decide on what they are comfortable with accepting in terms of likely threat. Overwhelming majority of people just want to be left alone not play hero with their CCW. Im certainly not interested in staying around if there are other options. In the event of a mass shooter not only is the shooter a threat but you also have to consider all the other CCW holders. Friendly/mistaken fire can be an issue. Bullets coming from all directions with scared people yanking on the trigger, point shooting etc. etc..........No thank you... not for me. Im not interested in becoming a human bullet trap for anyone... including CCW holders.

    One other thing I would say is if someone has no mobility (overweight, disabled etc. etc.)... best to have a little more firepower. If you cannot physically run or flee a scene you have essentially made yourself a soft target for a predator. I tend to carry a little more firepower when I am out with my kids/family because fleeing the scene rapidly introduces complications. If I am out alone a good pair of running shoes is likely more important than the CCW (Im pretty quick). A stray dog attack is a much more likely event than a human attack.. therefore I carry Halt Dog Mace more than I do a firearm. Im always suprised more people dont. Kinda hard to out run a dog.
     
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That and capacity answer the question.

    Nothing to do with "stigma".
     
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  3. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    Revolvers:
    25-30 years ago I would have been content to carry a S&W j-frame with hip-grip and t-grip adapter; it was easy for me to conceal on my slim 180# 6'1 body of the time; once I got a Glock 26 and started carrying AIWB that was the end of me carrying a snub. The 1st gun I bought my future wife over 30 years ago was a Charter Arms 38 with bobbed hammer, we still have it. Like me, my wife has moved from a snub revolver to a semi, in her case a Glock 19 which is easier for her to shoot quick & accurate.
    Revolver vs semi is not a contest for me; I'm not shooting from coat pockets in FL, a semi is easier for me to shoot quick & accurate, I'd rather have more bullets than less.
    Though I do not carry a revolver myself, I think they have their place:
    -Someone who is not "into" guns, seldom shoots, probably best served with a revolver.
    -Someone uncomfortable or incompetent with carrying a semi loaded chamber, probably best served with a revolver.

    Caliber:
    When I was limited by work attire, the "best I could do" was begrudgingly a P3AT or LCP 380 in pocket. Thankfully, I can dress as I choose and the smallest I carry now is a Kahr PM9 as a 2nd option (AKA "back-up") to Glock on belt. If I'm push mowing or jogging in gym shorts then a Sig 365 in Smartcarry.
    25-30 years ago, other than that j-frame another option for me to easily conceal would have been my Colt Mustang Pocketlite 380. (that is kind of retro)
    The Kahr PM9 did not exist then, if it did I would have rather had 7 rounds of 9mm than 5 rounds 38 or 7 rounds 380.
    I have no reason now to carry less (smaller) than 9mm and I don't.

    Would I hunt deer with 9mm? No, but I am carrying it. (I did shoot a deer with a 10mm 155 XTP out of my "retro" 1911 Delta Elite)
    124+P/147 HST performs on par with 40 Hydra-Shok 180 which I was content to carry in the past (still would be) and would probably suffice for deer.
    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
    9mm 124+P HST - 18.3'' / .66
    9mm 147 HST - 15.2'' / .61
    40 180 Hydra-Shok - 16.4'' / .60 (Depending on one's age the Hydra-Shok is retro)

    In keeping with the retro topic of thread, if I carried one of my newer but "retro" in design 1911's it would not be loaded with retro ammo.
    45 acp 230 HST - 14'' / .85
     
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  4. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    That was definitely true of the 1970 Ford pickup I drove from the time I was 16 until I went into the Army after college. Unless they intuitively knew to use a pair of pliers or a screwdriver to jump the solenoid no way a would-be thief could ever even get it to start. In college my roommate's VW bug required a push start to go anywhere plus if didn't go in reverse so we had to be very strategic as to where we parked it, and preferably pointing downhill. :cool:
     
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  5. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    I keep my head on a swivel and a loaded pistol under my leg if I have to get off the highways and actually drive through Alief or similar neighborhoods. I also keep a bug out bag behind the seat with water, AR pistol, loaded mags and a med kit because you never know what may happen driving in Houston.

    A couple weeks ago they had I-45 shut down going through downtown on a Friday evening and they funneled all the traffic over by I-10 and onto a service road. Traffic was bumper to bumper at the exit to get back onto I-45 on the north side of downtown and 3 vatos were hiding behind concrete lane dividers and when traffic would stop they would run up to cars trying to jack someone with unlocked doors. When they ran up to my car I greeted them with the business end of a loaded 1911. They hopped their tattooed heads so fast back onto the other side of the Jersey barrier I thought they must have been half jackrabbit. Houston commutes are not for the faint of heart.
     
  6. md7

    md7 Member

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    Paraphrasing Henry Ford… if he’d have built what people wanted, it would’ve been a faster horse.

    Time and technology change things, I suppose.

    Personally, I don’t look down on anyone’s carry choice. They’re them, and I’m me. And me chooses to ccw a G26 with 15 round reloads in lieu of .25 or .32 options. And if people choose differently then that’s ok. Doesn’t impact me at all
     
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  7. TheotherMikeG

    TheotherMikeG Member

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    That old saw has never really resonated with me. In my limited experience, the old man with one gun keeps it wrapped in an old towel. It's buried in a drawer somewhere and it'll eventually end up in an estate sale or handed down to a relative.
     
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  8. The_Quartermaster

    The_Quartermaster Member

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    Ya, I've never believed in that wives tale either. Some may be true to it, but that's not the norm really.
     
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  9. TheotherMikeG

    TheotherMikeG Member

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    This
     
  10. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    The full quote from Robert Heinlein is "Well, in the first place an armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

     
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  11. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Like all things tool related, there is a minimum floor of quality that should be met, but past that improvements in gear provide marginal advantage at best in most situations.

    If your gun goes "bang" every time the trigger is pulled with the ammo you carry in it, and the bullet goes where it's aimed within 10-15 yards, then your gear is objectively "good enough." Doesn't matter if it's a $200 Taurus or a $2,000 STI Edge.

    Jimmy Page can make better noise with a $65 guitar bought off Amazon than a typical person can do with a $10,000 Les Paul. As long as the strings don't break :D
     
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  12. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Okay, who's carrying a '96 Mauser broom handle in an inside waistband holster?

    That would create quite a stir if it was pulled out.
     
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  13. Reinz

    Reinz Member

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    78B3CCA6-3023-4A8B-974F-91FD22CE6FED.jpeg
     
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  14. PWC

    PWC Member

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    Both my grandfathers carried while delivering US mail on horseback on early 1900s. My mother's father carried a nickel plated, 6 shot, break top Iver Johnson, which my brother has. My father's father carried an 1873 Colt, from the description, which I never saw, but only heard about. No holsters, only pocket or belt.

    Mail men were required to be armed because in that time people would send cash by mail. Neither grand parent was ever robbed.
     
  15. sparkyfender

    sparkyfender Member

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    My grandfather died before I was born, but I know from family stories the young rural men growing up in his era carried a gun regularly. Most often a revolver such as an Iver Johnson, Hopkins & Allen, Harrington & Richards, etc. You would have to have been pretty well off to score a Colt or S&W, but it wasn't unheard of.

    They usually carried them in a jacket pocket, maybe in a pants pocket if the weather was really warm.
    I do know a little later in his life, between the World Wars, my grandfather carried a Luger that he got from one of my uncles. At the time it was considered a huge gun.

    I've handled that Luger, it is now in the possession of a 1st cousin. Nice condition. My late father remembered when it had a wooden stock, but sadly, that was lost many years ago.
     
  16. Cacas ex Fortuna

    Cacas ex Fortuna Member

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    The ole man came back from WWII and carried a 1911 the rest of his days.
     
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  17. Autodidactic

    Autodidactic Member

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    Right, three of the main service and carry calibers (.38 special, 9mm, and .45 acp), are over 100 years old. Add in .22 lr and now we are talking also quite old. .357 is getting up there. I would say that outdated, weaker cartridges that are no longer made are perhaps obsolete. For example, .41 rimfire in old derringers.
     
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  18. jar

    jar Contributing Member

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    For the last few days I've been breaking in a new IWB leather holster for my S&W Highway Patrolman. It's pretty much classic Heavy Metal weighing in at over 45 ounces loaded with 38 Special (gave all my 357 away years ago). For reference that ,is almost exactly the same weight as my Government size 1911 with 7 + 1 45acp rounds. As far as comfort goes it has been surprisingly pleasant, about the same as with my leather OWB and definitely less obvious. As always it takes a while to get adapted to any new leather holster but re-holstering is getting easier, the draw is still slow.

    I'd say that the Highway Patrolman definitely qualifies as retro since IIRC I bought it in 1965 shortly before I got married. Carrying it IWB is not really retro, in fact I would have thought it impossible other than just shoved into a belt back when I bought it. And at over two pounds it would not have stayed in my belt for long back then.

    But would it work as well today as it would have back then? Do I feel as well armed with it today as with any of my other newer higher capacity handguns?

    Yes.
     
  19. tark

    tark Member

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    Been there, done that. Only did it once, still don't know what got into me. Didn't have to pull it . It was in a DT&C holster. ( duct tape and cardboard )
     
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  20. KansasTrapper77

    KansasTrapper77 Member

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    The CCW instructors all seem to insist you carry a full size striker fired 9mm kitted with lights and red dots shoved down the front of your pants. They also seem to wear tactical pants with pockets bulging from all the kit they’re lugging around and an untucked button up. So pro tip if you’re robbing the bank shoot the guy in tactical pants first. He probably have a bigger gun than you do.
     
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  21. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    Here's the key unstated part: mostly, they were carrying illegally. Depending on the part of the country, the local authorities didn't care, as long as you fit the definition of "good ole boy."
     
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  22. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

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    Exactly! I believe in this. We should spend most of our lives in Condition Yellow, relaxed enjoying life but aware of our surroundings. A good pistol in the pocket is good insurance but manners, intelligence and awareness are our best defense. I am a “gun guy” but I hope we never get to the point where everyone needs an AR to go to the store in Condition Red! That is not living! That is paranoid!
     
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  23. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    "An armed society is a polite society."

    This assumes that everybody is a rational actor. The problem is that too many people are not rational. As a matter of fact, the prevalence of crazy or evil people is the reason for carrying a gun in the first place. If everybody was rational there would be no reason to carry guns.

    Heinlein's idea is that carrying guns has a deterrent effect. Yes, some evildoers might be deterred, but some would not be. Rage, and greed, are strong emotions.

    The truth of the matter is that guns are a zero-sum game. That is, you are stronger if you are armed, but your (potential) opponent is disarmed. The competition is to see which groups in society are to be armed, and which disarmed. Universal armament (or universal disarmament) doesn't advantage anybody. The difference is that under universal armament, the death toll would be higher.
     
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  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That cerainly has not been my experience.

    Many defensive shooting instructors recommend brining a service-sized semi-auto to class, because it is best suited for the training drills. Extra magazines are required for the drills. Holsters are required.

    That has nothing do do with recommendations for concealed carry.
     
  25. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

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    I don’t disagree with a word you stated but not sure I understand your point. Everything you stated is a reason to be armed, we are! As sane rational actors, we need to avoid those negative behaviors. Live with a standard, follow the law and set an example for society. I see like everyone else the problem with mental illness that plagues our streets and cities. I also see that there are more repeat offenders among us then there has been in previous decades. That should not influence one’s decision as to what to carry, how to carry. Those decisions should have already been made as part of a larger thought process. Security is a much larger topic than a particular firearms type, it’s a small part of the equation. Occasional adjustments might need to be made but I would never judge or fault a person from carrying a basic, medium caliber handgun of quality no matter it’s vintage. As long as that is after serious consideration for their individual situation. Living in downtown LA is different from suburban Sacramento. Not every place is Chicago or Philadelphia, NYC or Seattle. Those cities and places are filled with unarmed sheep for the most part. That is why crime is so prevalent. I doubt many here fall into that category!
     
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