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Revolver or Semi-Auto for EDC?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Texasgrillchef, Sep 27, 2019.

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  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    How different injuries within the body will likely cause a person to stop quickly, and how some will likely not, and from that , what kind of penetration one would want; that the temporary wound cavity is not a factor; and that at common handgun velocities,, the pressure wave (often erroneously called "hydrostatic shock", which is a misnomer), is not factor at handgun velocities.

    From all of that, it has been reasonably concluded that (1) with premium defensive ammunition, all common defensive rounds from 9MM to .45 should suffice, in terms of terminal ballistics; and (2) a "one shot stop" is unlikely unless the CNS is hit, and that to have a realistic chance of a quick stop, the defender must rely on probabilities--which means on several rapidly fired shots.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  2. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    Where does the medical expert data lead us to believe that "premium defensive ammunition" is a factor. If we can dismiss that the power of the handgun round has an effect on wounding other than penetration, where is the medical expert data that shows bullet construction matters in regards to wounding?
     
  3. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    What you say is true if you are talking pure 'marksmanship' although I carried a S&W revolver of 14 years as a cop and NEVER fired anything but DA in all my training and quals and I would shoot 100% quals even at 50 yds. But we are talking about here is 'survival' not marksmanship. When a person is attacked UP CLOSE you MUST 'point and shoot' the encounters (civilian) will seldom last more than a few seconds and only require a few shots, if any, and the less 'thinking' (training) that is required to operate the tool properly the better off they are. The point I was making is that for people like you, who are obviously a 'gun person' who trains and uses guns often, this recommendation does not apply. BUT I have to deal with non gun/new shooters who wish to do the right thing and arm themselves to protect themselves and their family's and MOST will not train or practice you and other 'gun people' do so for them the revolver is the 'best' choice to START with. I encourage them to continue to train, and if they wish to get the PROPER extensive training to use a SA proficiently I am all for it. But MANY here seen to not understand that there are THREE very different types of training and they are as different as night and day. Military, Law enforcement, and Civilian, and the only thing they have in common is a fire arm.
     
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  4. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    No offence, but some of your responses are are just down right silly!!! It sounds like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. DA, in a FIGHT does NOT prevent you from firing accurately or rapidly. And 'reality' is based on probability, not ideology. As for the recommendations of 'well known trainers' (young folks with little to no REAL life experience), THAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE! Nuff said, have a nice day!
     
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  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    It's about penetration.

    Bullet construction, along with shape, sectional density, mass, and velocity, influences penetration.

    Those things also affect the rapidity and the reliability of expansion.

    I would not refer to that as "medical expert data". It's physics and materials science.

    By the way, I would say "dismiss that... generally has a meaningful effect". One can discount it and consider it subordinate in importance to other things, but I would be reluctant to dismiss it altogether.
     
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  6. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    1/10 of an inch is irrelevant. As stated above by Kleanbore, penetration is the most important consideration when it comes to 'stopping the fight'. If the bullet does not reach the 'vitals', no matter how 'big' it is, it will not cause the 'injury' necessary to cause oxygen deprivation.
     
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  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Some of us have observed that old hands can often do well with a DA revolver.

    Yes, there is a big difference between effective defensive shooting and "good shooting".

    that's right in line with Rob Pincus' thinking, and I agree with it.

    It really doesn't take much thinking to operate a semi-auto, after a session or two at the range. It does take some practice to learn to reload quickly, or to replace the magazine to clar the gun, without looking at it.

    To start learning the basics of shooting, yes. But for realistic defensive shooting, with a proper balance of adequate speed and precision (fast shooting, with combat accuracy), I do not agree. That's based on personal experience, personal observations, and the observations of those who teach more people in a year than I have ever shot with.

    A long, heavy DA pull makes it more difficult to fire rapidly and accurately. That's simple physics. Of course, some revolvers are better than others. A long, reasonably heavy one with a good trigger and a good grip will be easier for easier to use than a J-Frame.

    My Model 686 meets that description, but I can do better with a semi-auto with a good-sized grip, adequate length, and a good trigger,

    Those who have amazed us with fast DA revolver shooting, such as Ed McGivern and Jerry Miculek, were and are neither new shooters nor casual occasional shooters; they shoot full size revolvers; and their revolvers did not and do not have the compromised trigger mechanism geometry of a J-Frame.

    The first training session I ever attended was not really a defensive training class. It was focussed on developing the skills necessary to hit each of three large steel plates consistently, very fast and at short range, all day long while reloading and clearing any malfunctions that might occur, instantly. It was not for the experienced shooter. It was useful in teaching that kind of shooting and for getting people away from bulls-eye mentality.

    Full-sized semi-autos were required. The instructors, competition, competition shooters , explained that of them was very good with a revolver, but that even he would not try using it in those exercises.

    Yes indeed!

    They see how more students shoot different types of firearms in a season than most people see in a lifetime.
     
  8. Pudge

    Pudge Member

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    I guess irrelevant doesn't mean what I thought.

    If it were about penetration, fmj would be premium defense ammo.

    Is there expert medical data which shows that (other than penetration) bullet construction has an affect on wounding? You can use physics and materials science to determine how much energy a bullet delivers, but that only matters if it contributes to wounding. If the power advantage of the .357 over the .38 is so ephemeral, that indicates that the reliable expansion of the .357 isn't evidencing itself in greater wounding.
     
  9. Fiv3r

    Fiv3r Member

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    To the original question of the thread:
    I generally carry a semiauto simply because they are easier to carry most of the time. However, I ALWAYS carry a NAA with whatever my primary carry is. The semi is worn on my strong side. The mini .22 mag rides in my front weak pocket.
     
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  10. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Dude, you walked in here and started a pissing contest with pretty much every one. You've made it very clear that you're a legend in your own mind. I'm done arguing with you. G'day

    That could apply to quite at least one other person posting in this thread.
     
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  11. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Lol TM... Guess you met your match. Two of a kind you both are. Never thought I'd see the day. :rofl: JJ
     
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  12. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    deleted
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  13. Apuesto

    Apuesto member

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    The effects of kinetic energy is not cumulative. Two hits with bullets producing 500 ft/lbs each does not equal the shock and stun effect of a single hit with a bullet that produces 1,000 ft/lbs. That's why you'll never see a big game hunter with a high cap, small caliber rifle; rather they'll choose a double large caliber or 3 - 4 shot large caliber bolt rifle (some even use a single shot rifles). The larger caliber has a much better chance of incapacitating the intended target on impact, and there is no evidence to support an assertion that a small caliber increases the speed or accuracy of the first shot.
     
  14. Apuesto

    Apuesto member

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    If I had a dime for every time I had to clear gun for another shooter on the range, I'd be a rich man. The vast majority of shooters are unaware when they have a jam, and spend quite a few seconds jerking at the trigger before they realize something is amiss. That's usually followed by another couple of seconds looking at their gun as though it's the first time they'd seen it. Outside of a competition shoot, I have never seen anybody experience a jam who cleared their gun in a time frame that some posters here seem to allude to. And then I've seen some skilled IDPA/USPCA shooters take precious seconds to clear jams. It's clear to me that the very vast majority of gun owners will be out of the game if they have a jam.

    Revolver shooters are normally so surprised when a round does not go off, that they fire the next chamber before they have realized that they had a misfire. This, of course, is a problem when it's a squib load. Seen a couple of those happen too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  15. Styx

    Styx Member

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    That has been my experience as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    What is that supposed to mean?

    "Shock and stun effect" of handgun bullets is not a meaningful factor in handgun wounding effectiveness.

    Handgun bullets wound by hitting and destroying critical tissue within the body. Some hits may effect a quick physical stoop, and some will not

    The reason for multiple chots is to increase the likelihood that something critical is hit.

    Different subject.

    Read this, carefully.

    http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  17. Charlie Martinez

    Charlie Martinez Member

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    I've had my revolver for over 30-years & I shoot it very well. At my local range I shoot next to hundreds of guys armed with expensive hi cap pistols & I am confident that I can out shoot the vast majority with my revolver or my 1911. I can probably buy a better gun but I'm on a limited budget & don't think it's necessary.

    Awareness is important to determine if an attack is likely to occur. I cannot afford to wait until an attack actually occurs because by then it will be too late. I compare the law abiding citizen to a deer in the woods. We are not the aggressors, we are the hunted. Anyone that hunts knows how careful deer are & how incredibly aware of their surroundings they become. That is how bucks grow big antlers & that's how we can turn the tables on a criminal. Only through extreme awareness can we anticipate a situation & be ready to win a direct one on one confrontation with an armed assailant. Speaking only for myself, I know that if my gun is in its holster when someone has a loaded gun pointed at me the outcome of the impending gunfight is not going to be in my favor. Once the guy has that gun pointed at my face I could be carrying a hand cannon with a 100-round magazine under my coat for all I care because for me, its over (I'm not Clint Eastwood, in fact even Clint Eastwood isn't really Clint Eastwood). It's impossible to avoid every situation & even well armed & highly trained police officers get shot by idiots all the time. But through common sense & extreme awareness it is possible to predict a bad situation, be extra careful & above all, be ready.

    To me the outcome of a gunfight is unpredictable unless the first shot hits someone in the brain. Some people drop when shot with a 22 & others keep fighting after being hit several times with a 9mm or a 45 ACP. Brain shots are low probability hits (for me at least) so all I can do is try to be the first to shoot, hit somewhere in the vitals & hope the other guy gives up or drops before he can shoot back. There's no guarantee that even under those circumstances I won't be shot & killed.
     
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  18. Apuesto

    Apuesto member

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    Wrong. I've seen well placed, large caliber, slow moving bullets knock animals off their feet. It's the difference in a dangerous animal turning the tables on you or dropping.

    That's probably a good strategy for paper targets or arcade games. With a live, dangerous critter, be it of the two legged or four legged kind, that approach can get you killed fast. A wounded critter is a dangerous critter.


    I don't need to read a thing. After more than 40 years of hunting (20 in Africa) , a lot of it with handguns, I know what drops a critter and what doesn't drop a critter. I know where to shoot and what bullet construction to use. I have seen the effect of high velocity rounds vs. lower velocity, larger caliber handgun rounds on animals. I have seen wound channels in animals that dropped fast, and those who didn't.

    A suit sitting behind a desk compiling a document from a pile of anecdotal data isn't impressive, not matter what his title is.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  19. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    If fact, logic, and common sense piss people off that is their problem, not mine. When I post on any of these sties I don't expect to change the minds on those I discuss it with as most are VERY set in their ways. The reason I post is so the MANY people who come to the site and 'read only' can get both sides of an issue. And they have ranches for 'DUDES' and I am not one of those 'Dudes'!;) I am an old cowboy, grew up farming and ranching and still do both, so I am just 'open and honest', I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Some find that offensive. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  20. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    You got that right, Thanks for the 'old hand' reference. Most just say I am an old fart!!!:D
     
  21. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    So it is your contention that a study of the effects on human body of gunshots, many involving gunfights in common service calibers should be disregarded due to your anecdotal experience hunting wild game (not humans)?

    Am I understanding your argument correctly?
     
  22. Apuesto

    Apuesto member

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    Studies of the affects of gunshots on the human body after the fact is completely useless for self defense purposes.

    The only useful information for the event of a self defense shooting is if the assailant is incapacitated by the impact of the gunshot, and the time taken from impact to incapacitation.

    Anything else is purely academic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  23. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Leave the ad hominem and enlighten me then
     
  24. Apuesto

    Apuesto member

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    Ankle biters believe when they've read something online and put 6 rounds into a 12" circle at 10 yards they know it all. Even after they needed the "old timer" range officer to clear their jam ...
     
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  25. Jim Rau

    Jim Rau Member

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    Game animals and humans, apples and oranges!;)
     
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