Rifle caliber for self defense

[Art Eatman]

Ignition Override, why worry about big mags? Defense. Home defense. You really think you're gonna have to fight off pagan hordes?

A Mini-14 is always gonna be capable of minute of torso. A few factory 10-round mags around; lots of reliable 20s. You might even luck out and find some of the 1970s/1980s vintage mags, which mostly worked quite well for me.

If a mag is basically well-made but doesn't feed quite properly, well, that's why God invented needle-nose pliers: So you could tweak the feed lips. That's worked on many a mag for a 1911; I see no reason why it wouldn't on any other steel mag.

Around the house self-defense? A Mini is as good as an AR or any of the AK clones. The deal is how much you've practiced, so you can hit what you're shooting at. The hittee isn't gonna care.

Art

 

[Brian Dale]

You really think you're gonna have to fight off pagan hordes?

Art, Firepower! started the thread, and he doesn't live here. He might be considering just that.

I recommend first looking at the weapons that you shoot the best, then considering caliber.

For me, it's a revolver or a shotgun inside the house. If I included the yard, I'd add the AR-15. The shotgun would still be effective with slugs, to cover the yard (50m maximum at my place). {Edited to add:} Or a lever action Marlin or Winchester in .30-30, .35 Rem. or .32 Special. Haven't used others, but .357 Mag or .44 Mag would be fine with me, too.

Up to 300m, I'd use my M1 Garand. I'd also be happy with the Springfield in .30-'06 with its fixed, 4x scope.

I've chosen the above because I know that I can hit with them. I'd be satisfied with any .30 cal rifle that I shot well.

For me, because I don't expect to have to fight off barbarian hordes, this is just a "what-if?" scenario for me. Nonetheless, these are what I'd choose.

 

[R127]

If you just like the way the Mini looks then so be it, that's a personal choice but practically speaking I think the AR or AK is probably a better deal just because of parts and mag availability and price. 30 round magazines are a good thing. When you are fighting for your life or the safety of your family you don't want to just squeek by with the bare minimum you want it to be completely asymmetric, you want to take every advantage you can to overwhelm and dominate the enemy. Allowing yourself enough ammo to cope with things going badly is a good idea. Betting the farm on everything going off perfectly is not. In real life you will probably never need to fire a shot in anger because most often the sight of the gun will be enough but if you do have to shoot how many bullets do want? The answer is at least as many as it takes.

Mosins are powerful, tough, reliable rifles. They are inexpensive, somewhat crude and the ammo is cheap. Most of them are not tack drivers but 2 or 3 MOA is a realistic expectation for a good one and accurate enough to get the job done at 500 yards if you can shoot as well as the rifle. 1941 through 1943 Mosins can be very rough and usually aren't the best shooters because Russia was hurting bad during this part of the war and had to make sacrafices to speed up production. Always check the bore, chamber and crown. If you can bring a round of 7.62x54r with you and stick the bullet in the muzzle to make sure it isn't loose, it shouldn't go in all the way. All in all Mosins are a good value. I like the fullsize 91/30's more than the carbines because if you're shooting a fullsize cartridge you may as well have a fullsize barrel to get maximum powder burn but if you like short go for it. Most 91/30's I've encountered will shoot point of aim without the bayonet but most of the carbines won't.

 

[Wolfgang2000]

There was a incident yesterday where a man in used a 30-30 to stop 2 men from breaking into his home. 1 shot got both of them.

http://www.springfieldnews-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080220/NEWS01/802200424

 

[Scott7891]

Vz-58 (milled receiver, open mag well, striker fired, fires 7.62x39 like AK, less parts, and no tools required for field stripping) and backup stripper clips when the mags run dry + SVT-40 (semi-auto 7.62x54R) on my back just in case for the long range. It is better to be prepared for the overkill than to not be prepared at all. This world is random and so are the people and events in it. You cannot go on the assumption that nothing really, really bad will happen because of where you live. When it does happen and you aren't prepared you are screwed.

 

[jabotinsky]

Around the house self-defense? A Mini is as good as an AR or any of the AK clones.

I'm with Art on this one.

I've been looking at getting a step up from the 10/22 for fun, HD and temporary civil disorder/disasters. My short list is CX-4, 1894c, M1 carbine and Mini-14. The Mini is getting dissed these days and there are many used ones around...but I like its reputation for reliability, the wood furniture, .223 round, light weight, and the sporty ranch look that doesn't scream tacticool or insurgent.

 

[Cosmoline]

For long-range target practice/possible post-disaster 'needs', a Mosin Nagant 44, depending upon ammo prices (7.62 x 54R: in bulk). The M-N thread on THR makes the gun appear very promising. Reliability with no real repair skills normally needed?

The M44 is quite a bit shorter than the long rifles, and has a famous amount of flash and blast. So that's one drawback. The Soviet ones tend to have fair to meh accuracy while the Polish ones are often 1MOA. Reliability is excellent and the only real parts to worry about wear out every century or so and can be replaced very easily.

 

[Firepower!]

Brian Dale...I like your pick of M1 Garand 30-06. But how would you compare it to a semi 54R? Or perhaps 308 select fire?

 

[Ignition Override]

Art E: Quite true-thanks.

Jabotinsky:

I also agree with your thinking, among many at THR. But be really careful which type M-1 carbine you buy. I was impulsive and new nothing about semi-autos etc or the rest...
The Mini 14 appears to be viewed as inaccurate yet quite dependable by almost everybody on THR and TheFiringline. I have no idea what it is like to have a reliable semi-auto. Not one bit-but hope to soon enjoy this (it seems quite elusive, like a mirage in the desert).

Along with a good Mini (taking a more exper. shooter with me to look over some Mini 14s and review what to check in a used gun other than jamming, rust and pitting) my goal is to get a good MN, maybe the longer types to reduce recoil (a good Mauser 98 might not cost much more, but the 8mm ammo seems to cost what other ammo does at Bass Pro Shop ).

A website with lots of Mosin info (on the "FAQs), claims that
ALL surplus 7.62x 54R ammo is corrosive, no matter what the claims.
If so, is this why so many MNs cost very little to buy (partly due to cheap ammo?), or are many thousands of these guns suddenly now changing hands years after the Iron Curtain (Eiserner Vorhang) came down, no matter what the condition?

 

[Brian Dale]

Brian Dale...I like your pick of M1 Garand 30-06. But how would you compare it to a semi 54R? Or perhaps 308 select fire?

Thank you, Sir. I regret that I can't offer an opinion about semi in 7.62 x 54R. I haven't fired a select fire .308, either.

Given the chance to become familiar with them, I'd choose the rifle that I handled best. I would be satisfied with any of the three cartridges and would make my choice based on the rifle that I wanted to use.

Others here know much more about these choices than I do. I simply know that, based on my own shooting, and choosing from among the rifles that I have used, I'd be most confident with an M1 for the situation you have described.

 

[LAK]

Anything from .243/6mm Rem on up.

Bullets that will perform adequately on animals up to about 400 pounds. Nosler Partitions come to mind for example.

Plenty of reach if/when needed.

Good performance against incidental target barriers.

Will handle predators and procurement of game animals for food with the same ammunition.

 

[M110]

My 870, and my 92 lever-action in .357. Both I feel are outstanding for the HD role. But I have plenty of choice's, if I need to "reach out" beyond the HD perimeter. /wink

 

[mnw42]

Firepower!- I've got to have my preferences. Besides, there has to be something said about a 50 rd drum of .45 ACP It is more of a dream since I don't have twenty grand plus $200 of disposable income. Mk V, humm... I'll have to try that. I love my Enfield, especially with rate of fire bets

The AO Carbines I have seen have been hot and cool with reliability and quality, but GI parts do seem to fit with little or no fitting. My IBM/Blue Sky carbine is 99% reliable and more than accurate enough out to 100 yds for a defense situation. That being said, I did have to clean it up a bit and replace the bolt (new Underwood) and springs to get it to that point. I also expect .30 carbine SPs to be effective at shorter distances.

My carbine is my first choice for a HD situation since I don't have an appropriate shotgun. It is also light and very handy compared to my SKS or even my Winchester, and the report is less deafening indoors . If I have everything else disassembled for cleaning or lacking ammo I use my No. 4 Mk. 1* with Mk VII ball.

I think the loading is as important as the caliber. I currently keep my M1 loaded 110 gr SPs, If my m94 is next to the bed I prefer Federal 125gr SPs. If I had an AR I'd probably use ball or HPs over more varmint oriented loadings. I think that the 7.62x54R, .303, or 30-06 is a bit much, but the best gun is the one you have and almost any long gun is better than a hand gun.

Has anybody tried Cor-Bon's 100gr DPX .30 M1 load yet? I just got a box to try out.

 

[BIGR]

Any good semi auto in .223 or 6.8 SPC. If those don't get it done then get the .30 caliber or bigger out.

 

[Defensory]

.308/7.62 NATO

Superior to the .223/5.56 NATO in both stopping power and range.

You'd be ready for virtually any conceivable self-defense situation.

 

[Firepower!]

Defemsory...I 308 is a storng enough bullet for multiple purposes. The only issue associated with it is that all rifle made in 308 available here in Pakistan are too heavy. Perhaps a good gun for a guard on duty.

What rifles do you prefer in 308 (select fire)?

 

[Bowfishrp]

Well if I was not worried about blowing holes in my neighbors house, then my DPMS LR308AP4 in .308 would do the job perfectly.

I wonder if a 458 socom would work?!?

 

[diesel83]

Shotgun/Pistol/Rifle

First and foremost, the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun. The presumption that a rifle is readily available in your bedside drawer's lock box is what you need to think through first. In general, I recommend the pump 12 gauge shotgun with #4 buck loads to scatter away two legged demons of the night for all home security needs. A nice weapon from Mossberg, Winchester, etc. can readily be had. The shucking of the action is enough to scare anyone away.

For the point of convenience, I always recommend a .357 wheelgun because of their simplicity of use and appropriate power. 125 grain JHPs give bad guys good medicine. Of course, for those well-trained a semi-auto 9MM/.40/.45 ACP is always a great choice presuming that ammo is reliable and operation is simple (e.g: A Glock in .45 is a potent potion).

If you live in an urban area and insist on a rifle, a .357 lever gun from Marlin or Winchester is an excellent companion to the above. Ensure that your ammo will feed properly. A lever rifle also does not scare peering eyes as much as other types of weapons.

In a suburban environment, 7.62 x 39 is excellent, especially in a Ruger Mini-30. The knockdown is solid, but the over-penetration is not as severe as .223. Most AK variants would alert the cops that you were looking for trouble, so avoid those. Remember, the mess after the shooting is the hard part. I do not knock .223 black rifles as a weapon, but most of us do not know how to round a corner with a long barrel.

In rural areas, .30/30 is just as effective as 7.62 x 39 or 6.8mm SPC, so a solid lever gun is what you require. If you have long shots, .308 FAL is what I'd vote for, but that gun costs 4X what similar Marlin or Winchester would cost you.

In general for home defense, I recommend that you find a medium-caliber weapon that you are comfortable with, which means practice.

Unfortunately, most of us spend to much time thinking about the bullet for the exact moment, as opposed to preparing in advance to operate the weapon and do not think through the legal recourse of killing an intruder. You have to think about both sides of that. Otherwise, you might as well hit them with a bat or simply let them take your money, life, wife, etc.

We all know that a well-placed .22 lr shot will take a man out. It's the other aspects of the gun fight that affect the outcome much more.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by diesel83
If you live in an urban area and insist on a rifle, a .357 lever gun from Marlin or Winchester is an excellent companion to the above.

A lever action rifle is a lousy choice for home/self-defense in an urban environment.

The Ruger Mini-30 you mentioned, as well as a number of other semi-autos, would be a much wiser choice.

 

[Firepower!]

I have not come across Ruger Mini30, but I do own a Mini 14. However, I hate the way the magazine fits in it. It is really a pain to correctly insert a magazine in Mini14. This is a problem in a combat/defense situation.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Any Caliber that you can shoot accurately and hit your target when it counts.

 

[Ignition Override]

Firepower:

I also did not like the Mini 14 magazine at first. After a few boxes of ammo, it has gotten much easier and natural: it is the only gun I will shoot until the two Mosin Nagants (a 91/30 and a 44 from Classic Arms, NC) arrive in a week .
The M-1 Carbine magazine is very simple. Why can't the others be like that?
But I'm a bit of a gun novice.
.
Even a Saiga (?) AK-47 mag. was difficult to wiggle in. This gun had a longer barrel than normal and a hollow area built into the stock behind the receiver.
Glad I don't live in California, with my ammo supply.

 

[diesel83]

A lever action rifle is a lousy choice for home/self-defense in an urban environment.

The Ruger Mini-30 you mentioned, as well as a number of other semi-autos, would be a much wiser choice.

Tell it to the cops and the jury. Most urban types freak when they sniff an assault rifle. Keep it low profile in the city.

 

[nitestocker]

i have a 7400 rem in 30 06 i have 10 round mags for it its a carbine i would use it for the rifle part would prefer a ar15 but thats this summer

 

[Defensory]

Posted by diesel83
Tell it to the cops and the jury. Most urban types freak when they sniff an assault rifle. Keep it low profile in the city.

If multiple assailants bust in your home armed with semi-autos, and all you have is a lever action rifle, you're probably going to be pushing up daisies.

I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. I'll take my chances with a semi-auto and a jury.