benelli12
Member
+1 for the K-31 Swiss, They are ugly, but I hear that they are really accurate.
Rifle for learning real markmanship
- Thread starter itgoesboom
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cracked butt
Member
They are, but they also recoil fairly hard. Its hard to learn and work on fundamentals when the shooter starts flinching after 10 shots.
mustanger98
Member
Re: K31 Swiss and 7.5x55
Felt recoil is subjective. It's dependant on how the stock fits the shooter. That said, according to the Hornady 5th Edition load manual, the 7.5x55 Swiss round fires a .308"dia. bullet and all their's are also listed for .308 and .30-06 among other chamberings. Case dimensions... 7.5x55 is 4mm's longer than .308Winchester and 8mm's shorter than .30-06, so volume of powder is somewhere between the two. I'll have to check the manual again to get exact charge weights to comparison with .308 and '06. My opinion is that actual ft.lbs. will be in the .308/.30-06 range. But felt recoil and ft.lbs. are two different things.
Felt recoil is subjective. It's dependant on how the stock fits the shooter. That said, according to the Hornady 5th Edition load manual, the 7.5x55 Swiss round fires a .308"dia. bullet and all their's are also listed for .308 and .30-06 among other chamberings. Case dimensions... 7.5x55 is 4mm's longer than .308Winchester and 8mm's shorter than .30-06, so volume of powder is somewhere between the two. I'll have to check the manual again to get exact charge weights to comparison with .308 and '06. My opinion is that actual ft.lbs. will be in the .308/.30-06 range. But felt recoil and ft.lbs. are two different things.
I picked up shooting highpower a few years ago and here is my take. You don't need new. Most shooters could care less how new or highspeed-lowdrag your gear is, almost all are glad to see you there. Find a used AR in good shape and a leather sling like Turner as they are easier to find, may even come with the gun if your lucky. When finances permit consider a rimfire upper for the short range training at 100, cause after shooting highpower, 100 is shortrange. There are plenty of other pieces to add to your equipment but this will get your foot in the door. Find a local club and get involved because once they know you are interested they are more than happy to help. When I was going to Saturday practice there were experienced guys helping me and some others with positions and once I was up and running I got my expert card that summer. Some folks will even loan you equipment to get through the match, at least that was my experience. I've let guys use my Kowa that didn't have scope that were squadded with me and I love it when someones eyes light up when you give then a nice piece of equipment to use. Be humble, most of them will treat you like family. Shooting highpower, just below family time, has been one of lifes most rewarding experiences. My oldest may shoot his first Garand match this year and then it will be family time as well. 
I love my M1s, but I wouldn't spend much time shooting one to train to shoot an M16/AR15 unless I was going to shoot it for fun or practice for the next Garand match.
And of course always, YMMV. Good luck, I dont think you will be disapointed.
Here is a good start: http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...pmax=¬e1=¬e2=¬e3=¬e4=¬e5=&max=
I love my M1s, but I wouldn't spend much time shooting one to train to shoot an M16/AR15 unless I was going to shoot it for fun or practice for the next Garand match.
And of course always, YMMV. Good luck, I dont think you will be disapointed.
Here is a good start: http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...pmax=¬e1=¬e2=¬e3=¬e4=¬e5=&max=
MCgunner
Member
Buy a good, accurate, plinker grade .22 rifle like a Marlin M60 or a Ruger 10/22 or Remington 597 or a bolt gun, don't have to be an autoloader. Marksmanship skills begin with the .22 rimfire. Buy four or five thousand rounds for less than the cost of a new rifle and burn 'em up practicing.
Take some rifle marksmanship training if you haven't.
Take some rifle marksmanship training if you haven't.
kBob
Member
I.G.B.
I would think anyone as experienced as yourself would do well on a basic rifle qualification course.
I qualified "expert" at nineteen first at Ft. Knox with an XM-16E1 that had issues some three decades ago. Only once in my service did I score less than "expert" and that is a long story involving a 2LT.
Before I entered service my "High Power" shooting was limited to a few rounds from family and friends hunting rifles, a couple of clips through an M-1,
literally five shots through an M-14 and a few hundred from an M-1 Carbine.
What I think allowed me to shoot "expert" was the thousands of rounds I shot through aperature sighted Remington 513T and Winchester 52D rifles in highschool and the thousand or so I fired through tangent sighted sporting .22LRs like my old Savage stevens 67DL or Dad's Nylon 66 or my anchient WInchester 67 single shot.
At the Citadel during my one semester there I was one of four freshmen to earn "Expert" at small bore and that with only about 40 rounds practice weeks earlier.
I believe that shooting a .22LR allows one to concentrate more on position, control, and trigger manipulation than shooting high power. Before folks start, yes I have since done a far amount of shooting with centerfires sence then my last two club matches Ishot in I used an M1903A3 and an AR-180 in. I have owned and shot Garands and such since then as well and qualified with the G3 in Germany.
I still like to drop back to the .22LR frequently. WHen I was having dismal results with an HK94, the semi only long barreled MP-5 wannabe, I stopped and picked up my .22LR to assure myself it was not me.
A couple of years ago I took and Urban Rifle course taught by Maj. J.E. Land USMC Ret. Some of you will recall that besides being a national champion High Power Shooter himself, he was also Carlos Hathcock's coach when White Feather first started shooting competitions and later was Hathcock's commander in VN and shot in the field, sometimes with Hathcock and sometimes with others himself, as well.
He said to me in a break in the class that whenever Marine Scout Snipers or HP Competitors seemed to be having trouble with HP that he put them back on the .22LR and they shot as far as 200 meters with them to re enforce leassons about trajectory and wind drift. He said this always got folks back on track.
Personally I feel just the opposite of some folks here. I believe practice with a crappy trigger or a less accurate rifle does little to prepare one for a different crappy trigger and crappy barrel. I think reducing variables out side of yourself as much as possible make you learn to be a better shooter by controlling yourself.
As far as shooting a possible on a GI course of fire, unless it is your intention to try to be a precision shooter by impressing some one from a team that by sheer luck is whatching your lane, I can see little reason carreer wise to do so. Unless things have changed only the qualification, not the score will follow you around. The guy that drops just enough to make expert will have the same thing in his records as the guy that shoots the possible.
If I had to buy a new centerfire I would buy and AR-15 with everything as much like a stock M-16A2 as possible, just to be comfortable with its shape and controls. I would get lots of practice obtaining a zero, to the point of having someone else crank the sights off, front and rear so you get to start from scratch as it were every time. Obtaing battle sight and using the proper sight setting are key to qauifying with any M-16. I would also search for some of the reduced range targets that allow qualification at 25 meters, just for the immediate feed back and because they may require you to obtain a other zero just for them and it gives you more practice at that.
Just learning to opperate the gun and becoming very familure with it will give you an advantage over most of the troopers. You will not be fumbling for unfamilure controls or using them improperly when the targets come up. You will know the fastest safe way to make magazine changes.
Get a GI users manual and learn the Army Way of doing things, especially the immediate action drill. It helps to have some dummy rounds for that and practice it where it would be safe if they magically turned into ball ammo.
I admit it....I cheated on every one of the popup only courses I qualified on. I studied available texts and learned about the trajectory of the bullet with regard to the sights when set at Battle Sight Zero ( in those days with the A1s this was 250meter Zero with the short sight). Despite assurences that the round would strike every target when held in high center mass I noted that folks tened to shoot over at 150 and under at 300 so I held a little low at 150 and a little high at 300. I also shot to hit undamaged parts of the target at close range as the old target system would sometimes not register hits through shot out areas. I went for upperchest/head shots on the 25 and 50 meter and aimed a smidgion low at 100 to get the round between the damaged area and the bottom of the target. It was also posible to take that target in that system with the splash of a near miss low that threw up debris at a velocity that registed as a hit so even if I was a little off I still got a hit.
I also feel that familuraity with the weapon would help in night firing. We fired at night wihour NVDs or flairs at 25 and 50 meter targets that had little strobes set before them breifly ligth them up as though by there muzzle flash. Both in Infantry AIT and in Europe we shot under flares. In every case the grade was just GO or NO GO. The chemical mask of the time had rigid eyepieces so weird positions go used. Guess what? Those with the most familurarity with the weapons and the best day time scores shot best even when those weird positions were made up on the site.
My unit in Europe had a very high rate for earning the EIB. The Expert Infantry badge was normally won by 3 percent or lest of those testing in any year. The 100 guys testing in 1974 in my unit took 18 awards of the EIB. the other two companys each to twice thae average. One of the major reasons for us doing so wel was shooting expert was required to win the Badge. Granted we chot between two and three times what any other Infantry in Europe at the time did because of job requirements but I think it had much to do with the fact that we spent far more days with a rifle in our hands than other units. Part of our job required that we sit and wait for 3 hours at a time in a ready room and so many of us used the time to practice balancing a dime on the barrle while squeezing off a dry fire shot. A few times we shot the box, a system where by one checks to see they have consistant sight picture and sight alignment with the rifle fixed solidly in a box and a movable target befor a piec of paper. One ordered the target holder to move ther target up, down ,left or right until everything was perfect adn the target was marked. This allowed us to simulate 100 meter shooting from across the room. Those three thing allowed us to be familure with the rifle, learn good trigger control with our own issue rifle and learn sight alignment and sight picture to a fair degree and with the extra actual shooting this meant more shot expert so more could get by on the easier stuff like the killer map adn compass day and night courses, the forced march with gear, and the today hands on test (range finding was the killer here, oddly those that practiced such anyway for rifle shooting and calls for fire had no problem here).
My point being that familurarity with the weapon is a Good Thing(TM).
So if you have the money for any thing beyound a .22LR get an AR-15 done up to current A2 specs.
Rather than any other centerfire I would get a .22LR.
and now you know why.
-Bob Hollingsworth
I would think anyone as experienced as yourself would do well on a basic rifle qualification course.
I qualified "expert" at nineteen first at Ft. Knox with an XM-16E1 that had issues some three decades ago. Only once in my service did I score less than "expert" and that is a long story involving a 2LT.
Before I entered service my "High Power" shooting was limited to a few rounds from family and friends hunting rifles, a couple of clips through an M-1,
literally five shots through an M-14 and a few hundred from an M-1 Carbine.
What I think allowed me to shoot "expert" was the thousands of rounds I shot through aperature sighted Remington 513T and Winchester 52D rifles in highschool and the thousand or so I fired through tangent sighted sporting .22LRs like my old Savage stevens 67DL or Dad's Nylon 66 or my anchient WInchester 67 single shot.
At the Citadel during my one semester there I was one of four freshmen to earn "Expert" at small bore and that with only about 40 rounds practice weeks earlier.
I believe that shooting a .22LR allows one to concentrate more on position, control, and trigger manipulation than shooting high power. Before folks start, yes I have since done a far amount of shooting with centerfires sence then my last two club matches Ishot in I used an M1903A3 and an AR-180 in. I have owned and shot Garands and such since then as well and qualified with the G3 in Germany.
I still like to drop back to the .22LR frequently. WHen I was having dismal results with an HK94, the semi only long barreled MP-5 wannabe, I stopped and picked up my .22LR to assure myself it was not me.
A couple of years ago I took and Urban Rifle course taught by Maj. J.E. Land USMC Ret. Some of you will recall that besides being a national champion High Power Shooter himself, he was also Carlos Hathcock's coach when White Feather first started shooting competitions and later was Hathcock's commander in VN and shot in the field, sometimes with Hathcock and sometimes with others himself, as well.
He said to me in a break in the class that whenever Marine Scout Snipers or HP Competitors seemed to be having trouble with HP that he put them back on the .22LR and they shot as far as 200 meters with them to re enforce leassons about trajectory and wind drift. He said this always got folks back on track.
Personally I feel just the opposite of some folks here. I believe practice with a crappy trigger or a less accurate rifle does little to prepare one for a different crappy trigger and crappy barrel. I think reducing variables out side of yourself as much as possible make you learn to be a better shooter by controlling yourself.
As far as shooting a possible on a GI course of fire, unless it is your intention to try to be a precision shooter by impressing some one from a team that by sheer luck is whatching your lane, I can see little reason carreer wise to do so. Unless things have changed only the qualification, not the score will follow you around. The guy that drops just enough to make expert will have the same thing in his records as the guy that shoots the possible.
If I had to buy a new centerfire I would buy and AR-15 with everything as much like a stock M-16A2 as possible, just to be comfortable with its shape and controls. I would get lots of practice obtaining a zero, to the point of having someone else crank the sights off, front and rear so you get to start from scratch as it were every time. Obtaing battle sight and using the proper sight setting are key to qauifying with any M-16. I would also search for some of the reduced range targets that allow qualification at 25 meters, just for the immediate feed back and because they may require you to obtain a other zero just for them and it gives you more practice at that.
Just learning to opperate the gun and becoming very familure with it will give you an advantage over most of the troopers. You will not be fumbling for unfamilure controls or using them improperly when the targets come up. You will know the fastest safe way to make magazine changes.
Get a GI users manual and learn the Army Way of doing things, especially the immediate action drill. It helps to have some dummy rounds for that and practice it where it would be safe if they magically turned into ball ammo.
I admit it....I cheated on every one of the popup only courses I qualified on. I studied available texts and learned about the trajectory of the bullet with regard to the sights when set at Battle Sight Zero ( in those days with the A1s this was 250meter Zero with the short sight). Despite assurences that the round would strike every target when held in high center mass I noted that folks tened to shoot over at 150 and under at 300 so I held a little low at 150 and a little high at 300. I also shot to hit undamaged parts of the target at close range as the old target system would sometimes not register hits through shot out areas. I went for upperchest/head shots on the 25 and 50 meter and aimed a smidgion low at 100 to get the round between the damaged area and the bottom of the target. It was also posible to take that target in that system with the splash of a near miss low that threw up debris at a velocity that registed as a hit so even if I was a little off I still got a hit.
I also feel that familuraity with the weapon would help in night firing. We fired at night wihour NVDs or flairs at 25 and 50 meter targets that had little strobes set before them breifly ligth them up as though by there muzzle flash. Both in Infantry AIT and in Europe we shot under flares. In every case the grade was just GO or NO GO. The chemical mask of the time had rigid eyepieces so weird positions go used. Guess what? Those with the most familurarity with the weapons and the best day time scores shot best even when those weird positions were made up on the site.
My unit in Europe had a very high rate for earning the EIB. The Expert Infantry badge was normally won by 3 percent or lest of those testing in any year. The 100 guys testing in 1974 in my unit took 18 awards of the EIB. the other two companys each to twice thae average. One of the major reasons for us doing so wel was shooting expert was required to win the Badge. Granted we chot between two and three times what any other Infantry in Europe at the time did because of job requirements but I think it had much to do with the fact that we spent far more days with a rifle in our hands than other units. Part of our job required that we sit and wait for 3 hours at a time in a ready room and so many of us used the time to practice balancing a dime on the barrle while squeezing off a dry fire shot. A few times we shot the box, a system where by one checks to see they have consistant sight picture and sight alignment with the rifle fixed solidly in a box and a movable target befor a piec of paper. One ordered the target holder to move ther target up, down ,left or right until everything was perfect adn the target was marked. This allowed us to simulate 100 meter shooting from across the room. Those three thing allowed us to be familure with the rifle, learn good trigger control with our own issue rifle and learn sight alignment and sight picture to a fair degree and with the extra actual shooting this meant more shot expert so more could get by on the easier stuff like the killer map adn compass day and night courses, the forced march with gear, and the today hands on test (range finding was the killer here, oddly those that practiced such anyway for rifle shooting and calls for fire had no problem here).
My point being that familurarity with the weapon is a Good Thing(TM).
So if you have the money for any thing beyound a .22LR get an AR-15 done up to current A2 specs.
Rather than any other centerfire I would get a .22LR.
and now you know why.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Eleven Mike
Member
Very good suggestion. Competent instruction is vital in any field, and you may or may not get very much of it in the service, where riflecraft is concerned.
tuck2
Member
I site in my Anshultz w/ 4-12 X AO scope 22 rifle using Win 40 Gr LR HP ammo. Sited in at 60 Yds the bullet path is .2 in low at 25 Yds, +.4 in at 50 Yds, low 1.2 in at 75 Yds, low 4.8 in at 100 Yds, low 10.6 in at 125 Yds, low 18.9 in at 150 Yds, low 29.8 inches at 175 Yds. The bullet will drift about 9 inches in a 10 MPH 90 degree wind at 175 Yds. I have about $1500 in my 22 rifle. Where are people gettiing thoes 22 Rimfire wonder guns that shot game out past 200 Yds? Some years ago I was a NRA Certified Marksman Instructor and shot the four positions at 50 feet. I grew up in the country and have no idea how many prairie dogs and jack rabbits I have shot at various ranges in my life time with a 22 rifle. Get a top quality bolt action rifle 22 rifle to learn how to become a rifleman. There is no recoil so you can see when you flinch ,and other shooting faults. Get some books from the NRA about rifle shooting. If you can, go to a rimfire rifle shooting club.
You've already gotten a lot of good advice.
A few more options I think no one has mentioned:
1 option = Get a replacement rear sight for the SKS.
Attend a Garand Clinic, I did one for 35 dollars & got some decent instruction. It depends on luck, but you will probably do well for the investment. Plus it is a pretty fair comparison to the guy shooting next to you.
An air rifle or .22 at home if possible. Shooting 10 rounds every week day puts you through the discipline of shooting better that 50 rounds in 1 session. Being able to pick up a rifle & making the 1st shot count is different than having a few rounds to warm up. Might as well work out the kinks cheaply at home if possible
WNTFW
A few more options I think no one has mentioned:
1 option = Get a replacement rear sight for the SKS.
Attend a Garand Clinic, I did one for 35 dollars & got some decent instruction. It depends on luck, but you will probably do well for the investment. Plus it is a pretty fair comparison to the guy shooting next to you.
An air rifle or .22 at home if possible. Shooting 10 rounds every week day puts you through the discipline of shooting better that 50 rounds in 1 session. Being able to pick up a rifle & making the 1st shot count is different than having a few rounds to warm up. Might as well work out the kinks cheaply at home if possible
WNTFW
Daniel Flory
------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
OK; next time it's your turn.
------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
My advise is not to get all hung up about what rifle you should get untill you look around and find what type of shooting is going on in your area.
Poke around on the internet,visit local gun clubs,and find out what is going on in your area.Highpower,service rifle matches,smallbore. Shooters in general and competition shooters in particular are very generous of their time and spare firearms to shooters just starting in any particular shooting sport and those same shooters are the best sorce of used special pourpose firearms. I believe that competition shooting and competition shooters are your best source to become a "better" shooter at any level but the most casual
Find yourself some local competition,get some good instruction from those who know their stuff (the guys who compete do !) and start out with some borrowed or good used equipment that is correct for whatever type you find,and then if you really get into a particular type you can start to purchase newer/better stuff as your wallet allows.
Haveing said all this a Rock River National Match AR is only slightly more than the standard ARs (and much less than some of the fancy models) and is good to go right out of the box and will serve your needs untill you get serious at a pretty high level. I bought one last summer and was out the door for $1025. You will need a couple hundred more for a sling,glove or mit and a jacket
Poke around on the internet,visit local gun clubs,and find out what is going on in your area.Highpower,service rifle matches,smallbore. Shooters in general and competition shooters in particular are very generous of their time and spare firearms to shooters just starting in any particular shooting sport and those same shooters are the best sorce of used special pourpose firearms. I believe that competition shooting and competition shooters are your best source to become a "better" shooter at any level but the most casual
Find yourself some local competition,get some good instruction from those who know their stuff (the guys who compete do !) and start out with some borrowed or good used equipment that is correct for whatever type you find,and then if you really get into a particular type you can start to purchase newer/better stuff as your wallet allows.
Haveing said all this a Rock River National Match AR is only slightly more than the standard ARs (and much less than some of the fancy models) and is good to go right out of the box and will serve your needs untill you get serious at a pretty high level. I bought one last summer and was out the door for $1025. You will need a couple hundred more for a sling,glove or mit and a jacket
EricTheBarbarian
Member
40/40 expert
Shooting 40/40 is harder than one would think, even for a good marksman. The silhouettes seem to just not go down sometimes. Alot of silhouettes arent always changed when theyre shot full of holes and i swear the rounds go right through them without registering a hit. Sometimes, Ive even found it easier to shoot up rocks and dirt in front of the target to knock it down. But good luck. If thats the reason you want to get good, youd almost certainly want an ar for practice then.
Shooting 40/40 is harder than one would think, even for a good marksman. The silhouettes seem to just not go down sometimes. Alot of silhouettes arent always changed when theyre shot full of holes and i swear the rounds go right through them without registering a hit. Sometimes, Ive even found it easier to shoot up rocks and dirt in front of the target to knock it down. But good luck. If thats the reason you want to get good, youd almost certainly want an ar for practice then.
itgoesboom
member
I want to say thanks everyone for the advice.
My wife and I have discussed it, and we are probably going to get a 20" AR-15 in the A2 configuration.
We are going to wait a month or two, to see how I do with getting back into shape, and see if my knees hold up. So far I am working out everyday, trying to get back to the fitness level I was at when I was 18. Ten years has done a number on me.
Thanks again everyone.
My wife and I have discussed it, and we are probably going to get a 20" AR-15 in the A2 configuration.
We are going to wait a month or two, to see how I do with getting back into shape, and see if my knees hold up. So far I am working out everyday, trying to get back to the fitness level I was at when I was 18. Ten years has done a number on me.
Thanks again everyone.
new targets
Rember my shoots going striaght thru the targets and not counting as a hit, hell one range in Ft Lenerad Wood i was able to score two hits with on round ( hit the target just right it would follow thru and hit the target behind it)
But the Army came out with new quallifing target that is placed at 50 meters and has all the target profiles from ranges 25-300 meter and you have to but 2-3 rounds in each which is kinda hard cause you have to rember which ones you shot at.
But for a rifle to pratice on before joining up get an Ar-15 with the 22lr conversion on it, that should give you feel of M-16 and cheap rounds to get send down range. dont need matchgrade parts for it cause you wont be aiming for bulleyes but for center mass (kill a soilder take out one, wound him take out 2 or 3), and find a range that has miltary type shooting range pop up man sized targets so you can work on target spoting and quick shots (time limit and 2 tagets up at once).
Rember my shoots going striaght thru the targets and not counting as a hit, hell one range in Ft Lenerad Wood i was able to score two hits with on round ( hit the target just right it would follow thru and hit the target behind it)
But the Army came out with new quallifing target that is placed at 50 meters and has all the target profiles from ranges 25-300 meter and you have to but 2-3 rounds in each which is kinda hard cause you have to rember which ones you shot at.
But for a rifle to pratice on before joining up get an Ar-15 with the 22lr conversion on it, that should give you feel of M-16 and cheap rounds to get send down range. dont need matchgrade parts for it cause you wont be aiming for bulleyes but for center mass (kill a soilder take out one, wound him take out 2 or 3), and find a range that has miltary type shooting range pop up man sized targets so you can work on target spoting and quick shots (time limit and 2 tagets up at once).
IGB
Please PM me your adress so I can send you the invoice for the $300 I'm going to have to spend on the Savage someone posted. If you'd like I may be able to send 1/2 the bill to the guilty party who posted the picture but since this was your thread I'm holding you responsible as well.
In all seriousness I'm planning on tying to improve my shooting as well. Been meaning to pick up Art of the Rifle but just haven't got around to it.
Best of luck.
Please PM me your adress so I can send you the invoice for the $300 I'm going to have to spend on the Savage someone posted. If you'd like I may be able to send 1/2 the bill to the guilty party who posted the picture but since this was your thread I'm holding you responsible as well.
In all seriousness I'm planning on tying to improve my shooting as well. Been meaning to pick up Art of the Rifle but just haven't got around to it.
Best of luck.
- Status
