Rifle to become a better marksman

[michael_aos]

I've got a couple of AR-15's. An AR-10.

Plenty of handguns. Custom 13.27lb precision bolt-action rifle in .260 Remington.

Shotguns. .22's. A bunch of air rifles.

Probably too many, truth be told.

I shoot IPSC, IDPA, 3-gun / multi-gun.

Despite, or perhaps BECAUSE of all this, I'm just not the crackerjack shot I'd like to be.

To rectify this situation, my current plan is to purchase a Remington 700 LSS in .243 Winchester and a Leupold 4.5-14x scope and just shoot it and shoot it and shoot it.

I had toyed with the idea of 6mm "no neck" BR, or even a 6.5 Grendel upper, but I keep coming back to the .243.

Thoughts? Anything else I should be looking at instead?

 

[Mushy]

To rectify this situation, my current plan is to purchase a Remington 700 LSS in .243 Winchester and a Leupold 4.5-14x scope and just shoot it and shoot it and shoot it.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[3 gun]

Doesn't sound like an equipment problem at all. Going to a bolt gun would make you a better shot with a scoped bolt gun but won't help much with the shooting you'll do in 3 gun. What you need to do is get a case or two of good ammo and go find a high power league to shoot in. It will make you a better rifleman with anything..period.

 

[rbernie]

I would have thought that the AR would be the best platform to use to learn on, since the cost of decent ammo is signifcantly less than the other platforms.

 

[michael_aos]

I would have thought that the AR would be the best platform to use to learn on, since the cost of decent ammo is signifcantly less than the other platforms.

Except....

I tend to think there's a tendency to put less emphasis on each individual shot when you know you've got another 29rds in the magazine.

Mike

 

[f4t9r]

Good choice
I also like the 22-250

 

[michael_aos]

won't help much with the shooting you'll do in 3 gun.

I know. I'm actually more interested in the random prairie-dog / crow / coyote / MGM auto-popper @ 200-300yds.

I hear about these old-timers of yesteryear that could shoot a fly off a buffalo, or whatever.

Mike

 

[RiverwinoIA]

I hear about these old-timers of yesteryear that could shoot a fly off a buffalo, or whatever.

Ive also heard they walked to school a mile in the snow barefoot, uphill both ways.

 

[wanderinwalker]

I'd get one of those AR-15s set-up for Highpower Service Rifle and go learn how to shoot there. Frankly, once you get good shooting across-the-course with that rifle, you'll be able to adapt to anything rather quickly. Shoot the bolt-guns occasionally to remember how to manual operate to get past round number 1!

At least I can easily switch from a 1903A3 to my scoped .260 hunting rifle (nice caliber choice BTW ) to my AR-15 to my Marlin 1894PG. Any one of the bunch in the right hands commands respect; the bigger guns just give you more range to touch something.

The .260 will punch MOA groups at 100 and 200 with regularity. The AR will punch MOA out to 600. The Marlin is a brush hunting rifle and I haven't benched it at 50 or 100 yards yet. The 03A3 will hold 1.5-2 MOA most days with good ammo.

Okay, pick the one you like the most and find the most useful and get good with it. Take your new gun money and invest in ammunition or components to make ammunition!

 

[michael_aos]

I also like the 22-250

For some reason I'd kind of overlooked the 22-250. I guess I assumed the .243 would be better in the wind?

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

I'd get one of those AR-15s set-up for Highpower Service Rifle and go learn how to shoot there.

For some reason I just can't get excited about Highpower. Although that suddenly has me thinking silhouette might be good.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

I also like the 22-250

There are some nice 22-250's out there.

 

[rbernie]

I tend to think there's a tendency to put less emphasis on each individual shot when you know you've got another 29rds in the magazine.

So use a 5 round magazine, or download the mags, or use a single-shot mag insert thingee. That's a discipline thing, not a rifle thing. I can't think of any better way to learn to shoot a rifle than to pick a chambering that allows one to afford lots of reasonable-quality ammo. After that, learning to shoot becomes a matter of selecting and sticking to a training program that will get ya where you want to be.

Sounds to me like you have 'wannanewgun-itis'. That's not a bad thing, mind you, but it's not quite the same as 'I wanna learn to shoot better'....

 

[mpthole]

Instead of blowing the $ on a new gun and then having to stock or load for another caliber, how about spending that same amount of money on some good quality training? There are lots of good schools and instructors out there.

 

[michael_aos]

I can't think of any better way to learn to shoot a rifle than to pick a chambering that allows one to afford lots of reasonable-quality ammo. After that, learning to shoot becomes a matter of selecting and sticking to a training program that will get ya where you want to be.

Sounds to me like you have 'wannanewgun-itis'. That's not a bad thing, mind you, but it's not quite the same as 'I wanna learn to shoot better'....

I handload, so cheap factory ammo isn't a huge concern. 69gr .223 Matckings run $12.99/100 -vs- 70gr .243 Matchking at $13.99/100 or 90gr FMJBT at $13.79.

It also so-happens there are some local gun-games with a .243 minimum.

I'd probably have the barrel cut-back a little to make it handier, and since I enjoy shooting steel the reduced velocity might actually be a plus.

Mike

 

[ocabj]

For some reason I just can't get excited about Highpower. Although that suddenly has me thinking silhouette might be good.

Mike

Though, it is the one of the best formats under which to learn and excel at marksmanship. You have to shoot prone, standing, and kneeling/sitting with iron sights. So, I agree with the service rifle highpower recommendation.

If not that, you say you have 22s already. You should learn how to shoot it standing unsupported at 1" targets at 50 yards.

Silhouette will work if you can find a venue for it. I don't know what caliber you'll need for rifle silhouette, but as far as pistol, the 7mm TCU is popular, but the basic 30-30 is common. You pretty much want to stay above 6.5mm as far as hunter pistol silhouette goes (unless you shoot rimfire, of course).

 

[Will Fennell]

Learn to shoot a rifle WELL?

IF you really want to learn to shoot a rifle well.....pick a nice, realitively heavy and accurate .22, and start buying ammo it likes by the 5000 round case. Get some small targets.....start with paper targets so you can learn from you misses....and spend more time on the range. A copy of Cooper's "The Art Of The Rifle" would also be recommended reading.



After a few cases, you should be getting there

 

[JesseJames]

Um, this may sound obvious, but, I think you may want to work on your technique.
When I was in the Army Infantry Basic training, before we ever shot a live round of ammo, the Drill Seargent had us insert a section of cleaning rod into the muzzle and then balance a penny on it while we practiced our trigger squeeze.
No joke.
In my civilian life I've seen guys show up on a firing range with all matter of expensive gear and man alive they couldn't hit their asses with both hands.
Then you see a guy show up with just a really nice rifle, and a few custom-loads.
Right then I knew I was gonna be taken to school.
Personally I have a Savage 12FLVSS in a .22-250. Excellent rifle although the magazine-well is bogus. I enjoy shooting it and have had a dandy time grouping at 200 yards.

 

[1911 guy]

Rifle and training.

While I do think that a rifle capable of the accuracy you want is a good thing to have, my thoughts would lean toward training to get your skill beyond the capabilities of your current equipment. If you can't outperform your current rifle, there's no need for a new one. Want, however, is incurable and sometimes just as valid a reason.

 

[michael_aos]

IF you really want to learn to shoot a rifle well.....pick a nice, realitively heavy and accurate .22, and start buying ammo it likes by the 5000 round case. Get some small targets.....start with paper targets so you can learn from you misses....and spend more time on the range. A copy of Cooper's "The Art Of The Rifle" would also be recommended reading.



After a few cases, you should be getting there

This really rings true for me. 10yrs ago I had a much larger backyard and shot air-rifles back there all the time. Crossman 160 from the CMP, Daystate Hunter, some custom QB77's, Tau, etc. I was a MUCH better shot at that time.

I also purchased a Marvel 1911 .22 conversion and an MGM 1/2-size IPSC target. My IPSC scores have improved dramatically after a couple thousand rounds of .22.

While the .22 definitely has merit, the (perhaps more precisely defined) goal is to be able to shoot smallish targets at random distances under varying conditions out to 300yds.

This introduces more variables, such as wind and range-estimation and understanding the bullet trajectory.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

Instead of blowing the $ on a new gun and then having to stock or load for another caliber, how about spending that same amount of money on some good quality training? There are lots of good schools and instructors out there.

There's a "hunter" / safari-prep course at Gunsite that's probably very close to what I have in mind.

Otherwise my impression is a lot of the classes are either geared toward Police Sniper (punching itty-bitty bugholes @ 100yds) or Military Sniper (crawling on your belly with a 20lb rifle and calculating mil-dots)

We camp a lot and are fortunate to be in areas that we can set up an ad-hoc range out to 200-300yds and sometimes even 500yds.

I'd be more interested in an "advanced plinking" course.



Mike

 

[Will Fennell]

Now we are getting somewhere!

Mike,
Now we have a better understanding of your goals.....

randon small targets at unknown distances....... this can easily be practiced by shooting randon small targets at randon distances out to say 100 yards. Wind effect and trajectory will come into play at these ranges with 22 rimfire, at a much lower cost.

After that, move up to a centerfire, but you will have finely honed your basic skills at a much lower cost, and without putting alot of wear on a good centerfire barrel.

Don't forget that this is a great chance to practice shooting in field postitions and conditions, not just off a bench.

 

[michael_aos]

While I do think that a rifle capable of the accuracy you want is a good thing to have, my thoughts would lean toward training to get your skill beyond the capabilities of your current equipment. If you can't outperform your current rifle, there's no need for a new one. Want, however, is incurable and sometimes just as valid a reason.

When I look through the "stable", I see a few possible options.

My first choice was a Sabre Defence AR-15. 1:9" twist 14.5" bbl with the SDI-marked Cavalry Arms lower and a Leupold 3-9x40mm PR scope. Even with match ammo though, I've only been able to eke out maybe 2MOA. So when I miss a stationary clay-pigeon at 200yds, I wonder if that was me, or the rifle. I don't really want to put any money into this gun.

I've also got an Armalite M15A4 with a JP 20" 1/8 twist medium-weight barrel kit and JP floated handguard. CMC supermatch flat single-stage trigger. Equipped with a TA-11 ACOG, it's a 3-gunners dream. I shoot local matches with it, and shot the Cavalry Arms multigun match last year and attended the Tactical Response "Tactical Rifle" course last summer with it. It's an AMAZING shooter.

I guess I could swap out the scope on the M15A4 and feed it some different ammo, but honestly I just kind of like having it as my "3-gun, gun". I've also noticed .223 tends just zip right through a clay-pigeon without busting it, and high-velocity ammo like M193 from a 20" barrel is tough on my steel targets.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

randon small targets at unknown distances....... this can easily be practiced by shooting randon small targets at randon distances out to say 100 yards. Wind effect and trajectory will come into play at these ranges with 22 rimfire, at a much lower cost. ... Don't forget that this is a great chance to practice shooting in field postitions and conditions, not just off a bench.

You guys are pretty convincing. It so happens I've got a Ruger K10/22T (the heavy-barrel, target model) with a Leupold 2-7x28mm rimfire scope.

I'd been plagued with malfunctions in the past, so I haven't really shot it much. It also balances kind of funny with the really heavy barrel.

This Marvel 1911-.22 conversion forced me to evaluate a lot of .22 loads. I hadn't realized they varied so much. I need to go through the same exercise with this 10/22 rifle.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

I assumed the 1:9" twist on this 16" bbl would be fine with 69gr Sierra Matchkings.

Maybe I should try a little shorter bullet before I totally write it off.

Mike