Right to defend your home?

[LibShooter]

Here's my unfounded speculation:

Jose Guerena was a criminal. When the SWAT team knocked on his door that morning he knew they were police officers. But, like many criminals, he thought he was smarter than he really was. He probably had some kind of half-baked notion of making the cops retreat long enough to allow him to escape. Or maybe he was just aching for a shootout.

Either way, he didn't have the right to point a gun at officers serving a legal warrant.

 

[Kliegl]

BTW: if something is legally defensible, it is by definition moral...as morals are the rules set by the society; the laws that spell out legality. It is a common confusion of morals and ethics

Nope. Legal and illegal, and moral and immoral are NOT the same thing. There are plenty of immoral things that are legal, and plenty of moral things that are illegal.

For instance, it is morally correct to kill a murderer or rapist. It is rarely legal.
It is legal to abort a fetus, yet it is immoral.

On another part of the discussion, whatever happened to parking in the street, pointing guns at the house across the car, and bullhorning "come out with your hands up"?

 

[Bonesinium]

Further, maybe a man who mistakenly thought he was under attack from criminal attackers, but maybe a man who had reason to fear arrest and decided willfully to resist with a deadly weapon.

We just don't know the whole story, but we're being wrapped around the little fingers of those who make money off of, get web hits off of, or just enjoy making the most of our anti-authoritarian outrage.

I'd really like to see some of these anger-mongers and sowers of vitriol come back to their blogs (or threads like this one) and say, "Wow, I apologize. I was WAAAY off. Let me set the record straight."

Won't happen, but that would be cool to see.

When that happens let me know and I'll be glad to do so. Until then, I see a man, shot 22 times by police in his own home after they broke down his front door, then left there to bleed out (or maybe he was dead already) for over an hour because the supposedly highly trained swat team took that much time to clear the house, because obviously, the wife and child should have been willing to immediately come out after just witnessing the suspected police fire 70 times at/into there loved one and not have any thoughts on maybe the same thing happening to them. Correct me if I was wrong with everything. No speculation, just an run-on sentence account of what happened.

If it turns out he was not a criminal, I would love to see all these people who have been almost blindly defending every action of the police and say, "Wow, I apologize. I was WAAAY off. Let me set the record straight."

Won't happen, but that would be cool to see.

 

[matty-vb]

the link in the OP is ridiculous.

"murderous charade" "stormtroopers" and my favorite "rifle-fondling poseurs"

what a load of crap. I also find it hard to believe that an entire police tactical unit made an entry without a single one of them yelling "police!" or "search warrant!" ect....

yes, a tragic story, but what a bunch of crap.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

way too many folks letting grigg and balko filter and spoon feed em bad info. and even these two guys who make a living with this as their cause celebre are backing off no new misinformation or ill informed rants from either

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i'm really looking forward to seeing waht the timeline is vis a vis wifes call to warn one of the other folks being raided. then there is the troubling fact that this "innocent" lady knew who to call and warn. in my world in order to know who to warn she had to have knowledge of their criminal enterprise.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14742824/swat-raid-deadly-force-justified-when-serving-search-warrant

legal opinion general one not specific to this case

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14743460/closer-look-at-three-other-homes-involved-in-swat-raids


some sparse info on other houses raided


http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/Pima-County-Sheriff-releases--122746649.html


and it would appear these folks are seeing tapes balko hasn't posted .... yet

It shows a very intense scene including the gunfire that killed Jose Guerena.

Loud sirens could be heard on the audio tape produced by PCSD As members of the SWAT team approach the Guerena home at around 9:30 the morning of May 5.

Police open the door, police open the door.

Once the door wasn't opened, the team breached the door three minutes later.

A few seconds after that, shots were fired.

Back up get him out, get back, get back give me a gun up here. I'm out.

Moments later, the SWAT team describes what happened when they started firing shots.

Who shot back?
All of us did. Hector went down and I didn't know if he was hit our not. I kept shooting to get him out.

At one point, Vanessa Guerena Jose's wife is seen walking close by the door, but then she leaves. The SWAT team tries to get her to come out.

We've got medical attention and paramedics out here to help you guys. We need everybody out of the house.

Vanessa eventually comes out and you can hear the fear in her voice as she is yelling in the background.

Come on, come here. We will get your baby, come here.
No, no you going to shoot me.
Come here.

The SWAT team got the little boy out and by 10:30, the team confirmed that Jose was dead.

 

[Heretic]

Klieg, you stole my thunder. I couldn't agree more.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

there is also the unsolved murder about a year ago of 2 relatives to ponder

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23591285@N07/3947085484/in/set-72157621723829828

so in grigg/balkoland you could see this and not know what it was?
how?

 

[avs11054]

On another part of the discussion, whatever happened to parking in the street, pointing guns at the house across the car, and bullhorning "come out with your hands up"?

You've seen too many movies. That's patrol's job until SWAT gets there. When SWAT gets there, it's time to go in. With search warrants, SWAT goes and knocks on the door, and if there is no answer, they go in.

If it turns out he was not a criminal

He pointed a gun at the cops. That's aggravated assault in AZ

 

[Bonesinium]

He pointed a gun at the cops. That's aggravated assault in AZ

Of course if it was as simple as that, like him walking into a police station and pointing a gun at them, or pointing a gun at an officer on a traffic stop. But of course the fact he was woken from a sleep to loud noises and pointed his rifle at his front door from inside his house has no nothing to do with it...

If I am woken up at 9am to loud noises at my front door and yelling, I'm pointing my gun at the door too. Every time. Why? Because I'm not a criminal, haven't done anything wrong, and have no idea why someone is trying to break in. Assuming it is the police is the last thing I'm thinking about in my half asleep state. He was doomed.

But of course let us just keep forgetting that this highly trained force was unable to clear the relatively small house of a single women and child for over an hour, preventing any sort of medical attention. I wonder if the same tune would be sung if one of the 70 rounds they fired had hit the child, and while they were "securing the house" the kid died....but the kid was probably a criminal too because he has relatives tied to suspected criminal activity...bla bla bla...speculation speculation...irrelevancies irrelevancies...invalid justification invalid justification...

Oh yeah, the same highly trained swat force that randomly fires off rounds, excuse me, has a "misfire". But no big deal really. It only lead to them shooting someone else 22 times, and they were okay. Because it doesn't really matter if you are okay. I mean, the police didn't get shot. People posting in this thread didn't get shot. It wasn't our family member who got shot. So why care right? Let's just say the police were doing their job and leave it at that. Because that is a lot easier then caring about someone who 'might' be a criminal.

Some of these posts really make me sick.

 

[Bonesinium]

Siren sounds for 8 seconds.
4 seconds later there is a bang on the door.
There is some muffled yelling, can't hear what it is.
12 seconds after the bang, "Police search warrant open the door"
2 seconds later they break down the door.
6 seconds later they fire 70 rounds into the house.
3-4 seconds after the shooting stops, an extra shot is fired, for good measure.

 

[TCB in TN]

4 seconds later there is a bang on the door.
There is some muffled yelling, can't hear what it is.
12 seconds after the bang, "Police search warrant open the door"
2 seconds later they break down the door.
6 seconds later they fire 70 rounds into the house.
3-4 seconds after the shooting stops, an extra shot is fired, for good measure.

Anyone who can't get to the door from their bedroom from a deep sleep (or on the toilet, or anything else for that matter), id those beating on the door as police, and give themselves up peacefully in that amount of time deserve to be shot!



IMHO we need more Andy Griffith and less Rambo in our LE agencies. Shock and Awe belong in war, not on our streets.

 

[avs11054]

Bonesinium -

What exactly is your point? As stated numerous times, the police had a search warrant, went to the house fully decked out in SWAT gear, knocked on the door, kicked it in when they didn't get an answer, and they shot someone who was pointing a gun at them.

A warrant requires probable cause to be issued, and it must be signed by a judge. The police obviously showed probable cause (as they were able to obtain the warrant) that this residence needed to be searched, and a judge agreed with it.

If I am woken up at 9am to loud noises at my front door and yelling, I'm pointing my gun at the door too. Every time. Why? Because I'm not a criminal, haven't done anything wrong, and have no idea why someone is trying to break in.

Yes, you can argue this...you can also argue that he knew the police might be looking for him and he wasn't going down without a fight.

And how do we know he was sleeping? Because his wife said so? She also said the police didn't sound their sirens and didn't knock on the door. If people are going to argue that the police are lying, it can also be argued that his wife is lying.

 

[Bonesinium]

Bonesinium -

What exactly is your point?

And how do we know he was sleeping? Because his wife said so? She also said the police didn't sound their sirens and didn't knock on the door. If people are going to argue that the police are lying, it can also be argued that his wife is lying.

I'm not arguing the police were lying. I am saying they need to be held accountable for shooting 71 times at him after breaking down the door when it wasn't answered immediately (18 seconds after the first knock, and only 2 seconds after I could hear them identify themselves as police.)

And as I said before, let us forget about how the shooting went down. The way it was handled AFTER the shooting stopped, was deplorable. If it took a highly trained SWAT team to secure a house of a women and child over an hour, then what business did they have entering the house in the first place? Think about that for a second please...

 

[avs11054]

Arizona Revised Statute 13-3916B states:

B. An officer may break into a building, premises or vehicle or any part of a building, premises or vehicle, to execute the warrant when:

1. After notice of the officer's authority and purpose, the officer receives no response within a reasonable time.

2. After notice of the officer's authority and purpose, the officer is refused admittance.

On the video, we are unable to hear if there is movement inside the house. If there was movement, and it sounded like they were not coming towards the door, that would be considered a refusal to admit the police.

When serving a search warrant, police do no sit around and wait the people to come to the door. Calling people out from the street would not be reasonable during the service of a search warrant. This would give time for people inside to hide/destroy evidence.

An M4's rate of fire is about 15 rounds per second. So that means that on average, the five officers who shot held there triggers down for less than one second each if the guns were on FA.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I'd really like to see some of these anger-mongers and sowers of vitriol come back to their blogs (or threads like this one) and say, "Wow, I apologize. I was WAAAY off. Let me set the record straight."

Won't happen, but that would be cool to see

i think at best grigg and balko will slink off to regroup and wait for the next incident they can shade the truth on and get another cashflow hit before the facts run them off again. its a living if you got the stomach for it. they have gotten a lot quieter already and the balko started hedging his bets a couple days ago

 

[avs11054]

i think at best grigg and balko will slink off to regroup and wait for the next incident they can shade the truth on and get another cashflow hit before the facts run them off again. its a living if you got the stomach for it. they have gotten a lot quieter already and the balko started hedging his bets a couple days ago

I think the funny thing is all these people talking about a police cover up...yet the more info that comes out, the more it validates the SWAT teams actions

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

its an ongoing iq test the smarter/sneakier folks fold their tent and slink off to profiteer another day. the less gifted stay and fight a rear guard action as the facts roll up and then over em

 

[rogerjames]

LEO's... Is there any other job with so much power and so little requirements??

Unless your fingerprints come back dirty, and there's an opening, YOUR HIRED!!

 

[Bonesinium]

Arizona Revised Statute 13-3916B states:




On the video, we are unable to hear if there is movement inside the house. If there was movement, and it sounded like they were not coming towards the door, that would be considered a refusal to admit the police.

When serving a search warrant, police do no sit around and wait the people to come to the door. Calling people out from the street would not be reasonable during the service of a search warrant. This would give time for people inside to hide/destroy evidence.

An M4's rate of fire is about 15 rounds per second. So that means that on average, the five officers who shot held there triggers down for less than one second each if the guns were on FA.

Well, it appears you watched the video, so maybe you should watch it again, because they were shooting for over 7 seconds...so that math doesn't add up...

 

[rogerjames]

I'm not arguing the police were lying. I am saying they need to be held accountable for shooting 71 times at him after breaking down the door when it wasn't answered immediately (18 seconds after the first knock, and only 2 seconds after I could hear them identify themselves as police.)

And as I said before, let us forget about how the shooting went down. The way it was handled AFTER the shooting stopped, was deplorable. If it took a highly trained SWAT team to secure a house of a women and child over an hour, then what business did they have entering the house in the first place? Think about that for a second please...

The problem here is that you are asking an intelligent question.

Although college degrees are not an end all means for judging intelligence, there is a reason why most professional occupations require them. Most police departments don't require them... not hard to connect the dots.

 

[hickorynut]

Anyone who can't get to the door from their bedroom from a deep sleep (or on the toilet, or anything else for that matter), id those beating on the door as police, and give themselves up peacefully in that amount of time deserve to be shot!



IMHO we need more Andy Griffith and less Rambo in our LE agencies. Shock and Awe belong in war, not on our streets.

BINGO My thoughts exactly. The last I heard the constitution was still in effect!!!!

 

[mickeygrimreaperblueeyes]

Seeing these responses, I have some ideas that the enlightened person that is awake and aware of the situations around them can feel, see and know that these issues are bad for the general population.

I'm sad to see that the idea of people protecting themselves and family has a become a fool hearty Idea.

People need to pull their heads out of the sand and look around at what is going on with the rest of the world.