Risk Management in Winter Weather

[Kleanbore]

I do not like going out when there roads are slippery....but when I have chosen to brave the elements to walk across the street to share a drink and visit my neighbor's big, friendly, warm canine family members, it has been my practice to not carry.

I think the injuries iI might sustain in a fall would likely be less severe; and I have reasoned that the likelihood of criminal predators being outing about in winter weatherwould be lower than usual.

But--the other day in St. Louis, a man's car became stuck in the snow and ice, and a "good Samaritan" in an SUV came along and helped him.

And then, as the man stepped out of his vehicle in the parking garage, there was the same man, threatening him with a gun and demanding money.

Police officials here have been on the air warning people to watch out for criminals in this weather.

Gosh!

 

[Soonerpesek]

I may be in the minority, but I carry at all times when dressed (not in my “PJ’s”)
Even in my house and not planning on leaving….
IWB carry has just become a “way of life” for me….
It seems to be a strange feeling when I not carrying….

 

[shafter]

It's all about risk assessment. I wouldn't feel concerned about walking unarmed across the street to visit a friend if I thought a concealed firearm could injure me in a fall due to slippery conditions unless the neighborhood was really rough.

It also leads to further complications if a fall leads to a hospital visit and now you have to deal with recovering your firearm from whoever secured it.

 

[Kleanbore]

It's all about risk assessment.

Yes it is. Our one-block street is little traveled except by delivery series. At my age and in my condition, the potential consequences of a fall could well be as severe as that of a violent attack, and falling on a weapon could make it worse. The likelihood of a fall is, I think, much higher than that of an attack.

Now, going to the parking lot of a supermarket would increase the likelihood of a fall, and probably, that of an attack.

I was surprised to hear the warnings from the police.

 

[jmorris]

I think you should watch out for criminals in all weather conditions.

 

[Kleanbore]

I think you should watch out for criminals in all weather conditions.

Sure.

 

[fastbolt]

When you've fallen on a holstered gun (or even a single cuff case on a gun belt), you can get a quick appreciation for the aggravating pain that can linger, even if no bones are actually broken.

Having experienced surprising discomfort wearing my uniform gun belt for DT, taking place on rubber and foam mats and rolling back onto a single cuff case or narrow dump pouch (located SOB) as a young cop quickly made a believer out of me regarding the potential danger for injury when something is between your lower back and the ground.

I've also spoken to folks who suffered serious injury from falling back onto gear secured on belts in the small of their backs. Ugh.

I once fell over onto my side while trying to walk (while seated) and turn a heavy MC around on a steep downhill grade. The side I fell onto contained a pocket-holstered snub (leather jacket with heavy leather holster pocket sewn into it). Nothing was fractured, but the bruising and soft cartilage injury resulted in aggravating pain that lasted several weeks, and there was a residual hot spot that didn't want to let go, and which bothered me for more than a year.

Every time I ride (MC's), or walk on pavement or trails, I keep the possibility of injury from falls while wearing belt guns in the back of my mind. It hurts more than in the earlier decades of my life.

Frankly, if I'm going to walk over to visit some neighbor, I don't gird up for danger and I'm not armed unless I happened to have previously been armed because I'd just returned home from some outside adventure or errand. After enough decades of having been armed on & off-duty, and now 16 years of retirement, being armed isn't exactly a 'life style' for me. Of course, unless my retirement activities are going to take me to a place where firearms are specifically prohibited, it's a rare day/night when I'm not armed when out and about. Habit, not a life style choice. Say potato however it may suit you.

 

[Kleanbore]

When you've fallen on a holstered gun (or even a single cuff case on a gun belt), you can get a quick appreciation for the aggravating pain that can linger, even if no bones are actually broken.

Yes indeed! I once went feet-first down a staircase, and the grip of my .45 STI Guardian, carried in an IWB Milt Sparks VM2 holster, caught on every step. Ribs were painfully bruised. While the doctor predicted recovery in around three months, it took well over a year.

I have since found an OWB holster to be much more comfortable.

Frankly, if I'm going to walk over to visit some neighbor, I don't gird up for danger and I'm not armed unless I happened to have previously been armed because I'd just returned home from some outside adventure or errand.

I wouldn't either, but the floor plan of my house makes all-day indoor cary prudent.

 

[CapnMac]

It's a complicated season. You need to protect yourself from cold, and you need to consider your traction so as to not wind up with injuries from slips or falls. This is like to "bury" your carry under many layers.

If you move the carry further "out" in the stack of layers, you then complicate your carry life by increasing potential administrative movements of the carry item and/or OpSec about that carry (Neighbor Nellie may not need to know you are packing, let alone just what that is).

There's probably no one good answer--an all too common occurrence with tricky questions in the "gun community."

 

[DT Guy]

When you've fallen on a holstered gun (or even a single cuff case on a gun belt), you can get a quick appreciation for the aggravating pain that can linger, even if no bones are actually broken.

Having experienced surprising discomfort wearing my uniform gun belt for DT, taking place on rubber and foam mats and rolling back onto a single cuff case or narrow dump pouch (located SOB) as a young cop quickly made a believer out of me regarding the potential danger for injury when something is between your lower back and the ground.

I've also spoken to folks who suffered serious injury from falling back onto gear secured on belts in the small of their backs. Ugh.

I once fell over onto my side while trying to walk (while seated) and turn a heavy MC around on a steep downhill grade. The side I fell onto contained a pocket-holstered snub (leather jacket with heavy leather holster pocket sewn into it). Nothing was fractured, but the bruising and soft cartilage injury resulted in aggravating pain that lasted several weeks, and there was a residual hot spot that didn't want to let go, and which bothered me for more than a year.

Every time I ride (MC's), or walk on pavement or trails, I keep the possibility of injury from falls while wearing belt guns in the back of my mind. It hurts more than in the earlier decades of my life.

Frankly, if I'm going to walk over to visit some neighbor, I don't gird up for danger and I'm not armed unless I happened to have previously been armed because I'd just returned home from some outside adventure or errand. After enough decades of having been armed on & off-duty, and now 16 years of retirement, being armed isn't exactly a 'life style' for me. Of course, unless my retirement activities are going to take me to a place where firearms are specifically prohibited, it's a rare day/night when I'm not armed when out and about. Habit, not a life style choice. Say potato however it may suit you.

Our guys used to bitch that I didn't allow them to wear anything from the point of each hip around back; it made their duty belt 'too crowded' in front.

One trip to the map usually sorted that bitching out.

Larry

 

[Hunter 08]

I do not like going out when there roads are slippery....but when I have chosen to brave the elements to walk across the street to share a drink and visit my neibor's big, friendly, warm canine family members, it has been my practice to not carry.

I think the injuries iI might sustain in a fall would likely be less severe; and I have reasoned that the likelihood of criminal predators being outing about in winter weatherwould be lower than usual.

But--the other day in St. Louis, a man's car became stuck in the snow and ice, and a "good Samaritan" in an SUV came along and helped him.

And then, as the man stepped out of his vehicle in the parking garage, there was the same man, threatening him with a gun and demanding money.

Police officials here have been on the air warning people to watch out for criminals in this weather.

Gosh!

S-bags are going to be s-bags, regardless of the time of year. They just use whatever condition they can. If said S-bag tried doing that to me and they slipped and fell, needless to say, I'm not helping them up or calling an ambulance.

 

[Kleanbore]

S-bags are going to be s-bags, regardless of the time of year.

The seasonable variable regarding the threat has to do with the likelihood that the predators will be out and about in inclement winter conditions.

If said S-bag tried doing that to me and they slipped and fell, needless to say, I'm not helping them up or calling an ambulance.

The subject at hand is whether the defender may be more severely injured if he falls on a firearm.

Both are part of the risk assessment equation.

You seemed to have missed both points.

 

[Hunter 08]

The seasonable variable regarding the threat has to do with the likelihood that the predators will be out and about in inclement winter conditions.

The subject at hand is whether the defender may be more severely injured if he falls on a firearm.

Both are part of the risk assessment equation.

You seemed to have missed both points.

Odds of falling will never not be zero, regardless of the time of year. Slip on ice or trip over a crack on the side walk in the middle of summer. If you're going to carry, do it. Don't make excuses that you might fall and hurt yourself if you land on your weapon.

Try to mitigate your chances of falling. If I'm out and about with ice, I wear yak tracks on my boots. I don't care if it scratches floors, I don't want to take a spill if I can help it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Odds of falling will never not be zero, regardless of the time of year.

One of the basic elements of risk assessment involves the assessment of the likelihood that a risk will occur. Frozen winter precipitation increases the likelihood of falling.

Don't make excuses that you might fall and hurt yourself if you land on your weapon.

The other part of risk assessment involves the severity of the potential consequences. Simple analysis would tell us that falling on a gun would increase the severity. I have had that happen.

If you're going to carry, do it.

The question is whether one wants to accept the risk. I believe that the likelihood of criminal attack is reduced cuing inclement winter weather, and I am willing to mitigate the risk of injury due to a fall by not carrying in such conditions.

That is the gist of the OP.

Try to mitigate your chances of falling. If I'm out and about with ice, I wear yak tracks on my boots.

I do that,

 

[The Night Rider]

I fell on an M&P40 at work one time. I had these as fast as FedEx could get them to me.

On clearance at REI.

65 bucks I use them frequently.

 

[Hunter 08]

I fell on an M&P40 at work one time. I had these as fast as FedEx could get them to me.
View attachment 1245528
On clearance at REI.

View attachment 1245529
65 bucks I use them frequently.

Padded holster?

 

[The Night Rider]

Padded holster?

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Now that I'm retired I wear them here

 

[Hunter 08]

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Now that I'm retired I wear them here

Ah now I see the cleats. I go for these as does my elderly dad.

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[JTHunter]

I may be in the minority, but I carry at all times when dressed (not in my “PJ’s”)
Even in my house and not planning on leaving….
IWB carry has just become a “way of life” for me….
It seems to be a strange feeling when I not carrying….

I may be in a minority here but I don't have a CCP to carry outside and I go so many places that are posted, I have chosen to NOT give this state any more of my money than absolutely necessary. Inside, I also don't need to carry as there are pistols situated in "convenient locations" all the time.

 

[fastbolt]

Our guys used to bitch that I didn't allow them to wear anything from the point of each hip around back; it made their duty belt 'too crowded' in front.

One trip to the map usually sorted that bitching out.

Larry

Yep, even just having someone gently roll back onto their back, from a sitting (on the floor) position, can often be enough to let them experience how putting bulk between the floor and the lower back/sacrum might be a bad idea.

Then, having them speculate about an abrupt fall from standing height ... and imagine if the added weight of another person ended up on top of them during the fall.

 

[GJeffB]

Kleanbore, IMMHO I think you're a fine Admin and this is an excellent example of generating a discussion. Well played! Something almost tangentially is nagging me. Which of course is the definition of a well generated discussion. Hopefully not *too* tangential. My take on the subject is basically "I might fall, I'll leave the firearm home if it's safe." Surely correct me if the jist is way off.

Nagging me is the discussion of "I'm going into the "safe" side of town, do I need to carry?" This brings us back to the risk assessment. Is the risk of falling real, and if so HOW REAL? vs Is there a risk in a "nice" neighborhood and if so HOW REAL? 50% say carry always to prepare fore the worst, 50% say nah, safe is safe, you're overthinking. [well maybe not 50/50, but you get the concept.

I don't know that I have the answer. Often the answer to the second is "I'd rather have and not need than vice versa.

-jb back to the original premise?

 

[rust collector]

I am in the "above all, do no harm" camp. Falls can be fatal at this stage of life, and I suspect the odds are far higher than those of needing to pull a pistol. I would leave the gun at home.

If the carry weapon is deemed essential, I would recommend a belly band with a single-stack. A bruise might be painful, but you are much less likely to wreak skeletal havoc.

 

[Kleanbore]

Nagging me is the discussion of "I'm going into the "safe" side of town, do I need to carry?"

I have never liked that question. Except under the circumstances discussed here, i carry whenever it is permitted, indoors and out.

Is the risk of falling real, and if so HOW REAL?

That varies. If there is ice on pavement, it is very real.

In my case, I am a fall risk---footware can hel,p but I also need a cane or stick that will be effective on any surface.

The other pert of the risk assessment has to do with the severity of the potential consequences, I take prescribed anticoagulants, or "blood thinners", and a fall can result in a stroke or death.

My take on the subject is basically "I might fall, I'll leave the firearm home if it's safe." Surely correct me if the jist is way off.

I did not intend to come across that way. Let me try this:

If I believe that circumstances and conditions are such that the likelihood of a fall is particularlyhigh, and falling on a firearm will likely increase the severity of a resultant injury, and I believe such risk to be more of an issue than the rick of being unarmed in those circumstances, I do not carry.​

I believe that when such conditions exist, the likelihood of a criminal attack on our street will be much lower than usual. I think it would therefore be better to not have it than to fall on it..

I hope this helps.

 

[The Night Rider]

This brings us back to the risk assessment. Is the risk of falling real, and if so HOW REAL? vs Is there a risk in a "nice" neighborhood and if so HOW REAL?

I have fallen once for sure that I remember at work and landed on my (actually G4S') gun. I didn't walk right for a week. That one time was enough to convince me. I never went to work without Yak Traks again

I slipped and fell while out hiking once on the Columbine Trail in Colorado Springs.
I literally caught air. My feet went out from underneath me and I fell from hip high onto the ice on the trail.

I turned around I went home and as soon as I got home I ordered a pair of ice crampons and I never went hiking in the woods in the winter without them again.

 

[The Night Rider]

I am in the "above all, do no harm" camp. Falls can be fatal at this stage of life, and I suspect the odds are far higher than those of needing to pull a pistol. I would leave the gun at home.

If the carry weapon is deemed essential, I would recommend a belly band with a single-stack. A bruise might be painful, but you are much less likely to wreak skeletal havoc.

When I worked for Allied Universal these were part of the site equipment. I've tried them out in the mountains and they were worthless but in an urban environment they're great.

I'm getting to that age where a slip and fall could really mess me up as well and I would carry these whether or not I was carrying a gun. I keep a pair of them in my car.

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