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Road Rage Confrontation

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by skeetlover, Oct 7, 2004.

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  1. skeetlover

    skeetlover Member

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    Dear fellow THR’s
    Today I came across some serious road rage today and ended up in a dangerous confrontation on the side of the road. On my way home from college I came to a four way stop and there was a car to my left and a car to my right, as soon as I pulled up to the stop sign the cars perpendicular to me proceeded to go through the intersection and once they were through the intersection the car parallel to me started to go so I went with him without coming to a full stop. I admit I did not do a full stop because the car parallel with me was already going so I went. It was nearly a full stop. There was an older blue neon that was to the left of me that also went; he jerked out towards me. The man driving the neon accelerated to get close to me to scare me so I would not have went, as if I went out of turn. (I was already almost through the intersection). I didn’t think I ran it blatantly and the car coming towards me was going so I went with him.

    Anyway the blue neon honks and flips me off and yells profanity while nearly missing me. I honk back and continue on my way meanwhile I see the same blue neon flying up on my tail end. He turned around to follow me so I went another block and stopped at the sign to turn, left he pulls up on my right side screaming and cussing and yelling that he’s going to **** me up and that I’m an *******, your dead, you stupid mother ****** what the **** is wrong with you and so on. I cuss back at him because even if I was out of turn which I really didn’t think I was I still didn’t deserve that.

    He is on the right hand side of my car about 6 inches away from my passenger door and screaming, yelling and threatens to get out of his car. He tries to open his door to climb out, but he can’t because we are so close to each other. I’m afraid this guy is going way overboard and is really going to try and hurt me, so I pull out my pepper spray and was debating on spraying him and driving away because I didn’t want this guy to get out of his car and drag me out of mine and or beat me. So I pull it out and keep it low while waiting for the cars to pass so I can drive away from him (remember we were at another intersection). He continues to try and get out of his car while screaming obscenities 5 feet away from me. Traffic finally clears so I floor it speeding away from him going left at the intersection. He goes right, I’m shaking and worried about what could have happened and why he flipped out so bad and if he would have really ripped me out of my car and tried to fight me.

    I drive down the road several hundred yards and pulled off to the right because I was shaken. I sit there a minute or so and I see and hear him pull up behind me. He screams and yells out the window. I yell back at him and he pulls up next to my car again I said “Sorry maybe I did run the stop sign and that I thought it was my turn and for him to leave me alone, get away and to leave now.†He jumps out of his car screaming at me and telling me he’s going to beat me and were going to fight right now. He’s still standing 15 feet away from my car. I have mace in my hand ready to spray him meanwhile he stays 15 feet away yelling and telling me to get out of my car so we can fight. I’m shaking, nervous, scared, angry and yelling back. I don’t know why I just didn’t drive away. He stands there yelling and telling me to bring it on I have mace in left hand on my side of the drivers door so he cant see it and if he comes close to pull me from car I will spray him and fight for my life.

    I yell to him that I am under 18 and if he hurts me he will go to jail and he better think about what he’s doing along with more cuss words because I was extremely mad. I yelled the same thing he said to me right back at him. I couldn’t really control it, it just came out. He wouldn’t come close I think he realized that I was holding something behind the door. He yells for me to get out of the car you ***** every word in the book. I’m shaking badly and can’t think, and even if I could it wasn’t rational. I was wondering what was going on and am I going to make it out of this ordeal okay? I don’t know why he didn’t just charge me and try to drag me from my car and beat me. I think he felt some confidence in my voice even though I was much smaller than him, and he knew I had something on my side of the car door. He continues to say he’s going to beat me and I’m this and that. I say if you come close to me I’m going to beat the living hell out of you along with some very serious cuss words, I once again told him if he comes close I’m going to beat him till he’s bloody.

    He starts backing up saying every word in the book once again and gets into his car and speeds off in the opposite direction once again yelling at me while leaving and screaming that he’s going to beat me when he finds me. Now once having been at home for a few hours after this incident I reviewed my reaction as this. I think maybe I should have sprayed him when he pulled up next to me the first time and sped off but there was traffic and he was wearing sun glass’s so I didn’t really want to spray him until it was ultimately necessary because I knew I might just make him mad and then I would of really made him charge me and rip me from my car, the pepper spray was a last resort. I didn’t want to over do the force by spraying him just for yelling at me but I was about to when he tried to get out of his car the first time (Our cars were to close together).

    I also think that when I pulled over because I was shaken, that was probably my worse move. I should have drove to a police station or just kept driving and not stopped, not made a confrontation, not let him get close to me. It was a good move to think and tell him I was under 18 even though he said he did not care he was still going to beat me it seemed as though it was a factor in keeping him from coming at me (I look young). I am exactly 18 years old now. I also think I should have not ran that stop sign I don’t think I ran it deliberately, but I should have made a full stop, although he was way out of reason for doing all that because I rolled through a stop sign when he thought it was his turn. I did not cut him off. He was rushing the stop sign and so was I. I was on his right and he had not stopped up at the crosswalk yet. I also don’t think I should have said anything back to him or screamed and cussed at him because that pissed him off even more, although it was hard to control when someone is yelling at you. I really think I should have kept driving and not stopped, that was a bad decision. Overall I survived and I learned a lot of things. I’m glad that I’m okay and I handled it all right, at least I think I handled it okay. I also think I did good by not getting out of my car because when he got out and stood 15 feet away screaming for me to get out I think if I would of got out we would have been in a fight. This man was about 35 or 40 years old about 6’0 and 180 lbs.

    I am 5’7 125lbs and 18 years old. It all happened so fast it was so hard to make good choices and decisions with all this stuff going through my head. I also carry a bigger can of pepper spray in my vehicle with easy access but just came back from deer hunting and it was still in my hiking bag until about an hour ago, now its back in my vehicle. Lesson learned to always be prepared. I also had a Kershaw in my pocket, but never resorted to it because his actions weren’t lethal towards me and I am cautious about using it because I don’t want him to take it from me and use it on me (Some knife training class‘s would be nice). I understand the laws about using lethal force and was only planning on using pepper spray and trying to get away unless he presented a threat to my life, It probably could have been justifiable of me using my knife if he had tried to pull me from my vehicle since I am on the smaller side and his fists against me could be viewed as a lethal threat to my life. I am telling you all this because you have to be prepared; there are crazy people out there. Practice and train and hope your training comes into play when the situation happens. It also looked as if this guy was on some kind of drug or coming down from something. It all happened so fast and it was hard to react smart efficient and quick. Things happen and we all need to be prepared and take care of ourselves. Any input is welcome. Thanks, Mark
     
  2. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark.

    Try deescalation rather than confrontation.

    Unless they're following you, disengage. If they're following you and you can't disenage, go to a public place (like a police station) where there are a lot of witnesses. Apologize whether you're right or wrong. Accompany it with an open palm gesture w/shrug and "sorry." Let him scream and don't cuss back. If anything happens, the witnesses will say that he was the aggressor.

    Some things are not worth getting in a fight over.

    BTW, that shaking was your adrenalin at work. Fight or flight stuph. It's normal.

    Gary
     
  3. DigMe

    DigMe Member

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    Had you sprayed him and driven off when he pulled up next to you it would have been assault on your part, plain and simple. That would have been bad.

    brad cook
     
  4. SunBear

    SunBear member

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    You never know what he or a passenger may have in the car. Don't let him control you. He's a stranger. Why do you care what he thinks about you. Disengage. Get on with your life. Someday he will run into someone as moronic as he and you will see it on the 6 o'clock news.
     
  5. Dbl0Kevin

    Dbl0Kevin Member

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    Not neccessarily. If this man had indeeded threatened to "rip" him out of his car and beat him up then he would have definate reason to believe his safety was in danger. Many people think that you actually have to wait to be assaulted before you can take any action, but this is not true. Once you have a reasonable and articulable belief that you are in danger of bodily injury you may react accordingly.

    I had to get sprayed with OC in the police academy.....lemme tell ya sunglasses ain't helpin ya any. ;) Had he been sprayed he would have to be nuts to try to attack you and even IF he did you would be at a MUCH greater advantage and could easily escape.
     
  6. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Speaking of meeting up with someone else...

    BTW, my brother was yelled at in a Supermarket once. "Get out of the way!" He steps aside as he doesn't want trouble. The guy who is shorter than my brother, starts berating him. My brother chews him out and embarasses him in front of his wife. Later that night, my brother sees the wife on the TV news. Short-Shrimp Whimpy struck her and went to jail. He wasn't happy to see that Short-Shrimp Whimpy took it out on her, but he figured that he had bad Kharma and that it caught up to him.

    The moral - sooner or later the creep will get his dues and someone meaner and nastier who doesn't give a hoot will pound him into the pavement. You'll hear about it in the news when they talk about an ex-con who's out on probation beats up the guy with a baseball bat.

    So, keep your Kharma clean and let his Kharma catch up to him.
     
  7. Sylvilagus Aquaticus

    Sylvilagus Aquaticus Member

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    I'm with Gary and Kevin on this one.

    De-escalate, back it down as smoothly as you can, and leave. Mea culpa. Smile, give him your best goofy grin and play like you're stupid. No blood, no foul. Arguing with an irrational person is a losing proposition. Sometimes it's best to swallow your pride. Your Maker gave you a bigger throat than you think.

    However, this is the one time I find that pepper products are of use- if the screamer had gotten close enough to strike- or does strike your car (or you through the window) then give him a little seasoning.

    Then leave. Safely and quietly. Go somewhere away from him...preferably a nice, well populated public place, like a police station in case he decides he's able or willing to follow you.

    Regards,
    Rabbit.
     
  8. JPL

    JPL Member

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    Try not to trigger your pepper spray in your car.

    It's not very pleasant driving it for quite some time afterwards.

    My wife's pepper spray leaked in her car.

    It was not pleasant.
     
  9. rayra

    rayra member

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    4-way stops do NOT work the way you described. The rotation is clockwise, driver on the right goes first, round and round. When people on opposite sides of the interestion - what you called 'parallel'? - go at the same time, they are breaking the law, and setting up a likely accident.

    Once the situation was blown by the two 'perpendicular' drivers going, it was a toss-up whether you or the opposing vehicle went first, to re-establish the proper order. With that driver having already been at rest before you got there, the neon likely (and reasonably) expected it was his turn after THEY went. YOUR failure to stop and yield triggered the altercation.

    The guy in the neon was wrong for accelerating AT you, whether it was his right of way or not. He was doubly wrong for persuing and engaging you.

    You were wrong for not knowing the rules of the road, for a rolling stop, and for escalating the situation, AND for foolishly stopping after a few hundred yards, thinking you were clear.



    PS - people with almost no posts routinely troll firearms boards with stories such as these, hoping to draw a 'shoulda shot him' response. I haven't read your other posts, have no idea who or what you are, and sincerely hope that is not what this was.
     
  10. Tharg

    Tharg Member

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    I'm no expert - but had a few "instances" of people and "raging" ...

    There is one thing you can do to de-escelate it ( i know spelling)

    that is the easy way out... keep a wary eye - but say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

    be READY - ya never know if THAT is the wackjob that will take it to the next level... but know that most of em are talking smack out thier car window just like people talk smack on the internet.

    Keep doin what yer doin - if yer going to the supermarket - go to the supermarket - if yer goin home - go home - if yer going to work - go to work... reacting to the ragers comments makes them madder - since to THEM for whatever the reason they "flipped" they are right - and further comment on the matter just solidifies thier argument.

    I'm not saying don't have yer spray/chl/whatever defense ready, as anyone in a situation should be ready... i'm saying its a judgement call - and egging the idiot on rarely helps anyone.

    I've found that like most bully's... "seemingly" ignoring them works better than just about any method. Since they have nothing to fuel thier anger... they have nothing to continue with, people move on thier way w/o incident.

    Yer right btw... pulling over was prolly the worst thing to do... its much harder for what seemingly was a more determined person to "chase ya down" if ya don't stop - not only that - the more distance - the less likely they will stick w/ it. All that said - good job for keeping your defense at the ready and not pre-maturely using it.

    I'll never understand road rage -i get angry - personally consider 80% of drivers to be idiots... <rofl - i'm sure some have included ME in THIER 80%> if not more... but getting mad (especially THAT mad) at someone that they are courting... well court... is beyond me... move on - no one was hurt, nothing was damaged, move on.

    bleh

    J/Tharg!
     
  11. esheato

    esheato Member

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    Rayra,

    I understand your hesitation in believing or responding to this post, but I can vouch 110% for this member as he is my younger brother.

    Best,

    Ed
     
  12. dinosaur

    dinosaur Member

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    Ok, let's just say that I found your post confusing so I'll keep it simple. Short of you running over a bunch of schoolkids getting off the stopped school bus with it's lights flashing, the chances of me chasing you like that and getting postal are nil! Anyone who does that is a dangerous retard and should be avoided at all costs! The best way to avoid people like that is put them under the mental institution and forget about them. Learn from your experience and don't do it (whatever the heck it was:confused: ) again.
     
  13. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    Or even better, COPS!

    WRONG! (IMO) Drive aimlessly for a little while. Some people actually get so pissed off they'll fight you in a parking lot. My advice, lose the tail first, then go on about your day.
     
  14. Tory

    Tory member

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    Not really....

    It was declared that:

    "If this man had indeeded threatened to "rip" him out of his car and beat him up then he would have definate [sic] reason to believe his safety was in danger."

    Wrong. A mere verbal threat is NOT sufficient reason to unleash your OC or whatever. READ the original post - at the time this threat was made, the guy was:

    1. Still in his car; and

    2. Could not open the door because the two cars were so close.

    Hardly a credible threat of assault at that time.

    To warrant a defensive act, the threat must meet 3 criteria:

    1. ABILITY - does the person making the threat have the ability to carry it out? A paraplegic in a wheelchair threatening to "pull you out of your car" is NOT a threat.

    2. OPPORTUNITY - does the person making the threat presently have a chance to carry it out? A phone call from a guy 6 states away threatening to "pull you out of your car" is NOT a threat.

    3. JEOPARDY - is the person making the threat taking immediate action to harm you? If not, there is no threat.

    ALL THREE CONDITIONS MUST BE MET.

    "Many people think that you actually have to wait to be assaulted before you can take any action, but this is not true. Once you have a reasonable and articulable belief that you are in danger of bodily injury you may react accordingly"

    THAT is closer to the truth. However, that "reasonable and articulable belief" requires that the above 3 conditions be met.
     
  15. trapperjohn

    trapperjohn Member

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    Please show the law on this. I am sure the law for 4-way stops is "first to stop=first to go"
     
  16. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Depends on where you are. In MI, I was taught that that is perfectally legal.

    Don't sweat it. A few years back, when I got my permit, we were in Daytona Beach. I pulled out of the Barnes and Nobel there, and a car comes screaming by at about 70 (speed limit was 35 or 45), honking the horn. It seems that she was coming around a curve so fast, I didn;t see her, and cut her right off. She gets out screaming about her baby, and how I tried to kill it :rolleyes: (like I was out to kill her baby). This is while she is standing in a five lane road, blocking off traffic. Anyway, this goes on for a bit, and the whole time I just gave her a stupid look. She eventually leaves, but what I found out that day was that either saying nothing, or apologizing and saying nothing further is the best policy.

    OTOH, I have been on the other side, too. There, you'll get honked at, and maybe the finger, but other than that, I don't see any further action as helping the situtation.
     
  17. johnnymenudo

    johnnymenudo Member

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    I would have called the police. The way the person was acting was very irrational - especially the fact that he was a male threatening to beat up a woman (actually a girl). I don't think you were right to yell back or swear back - you should have just gone on your way and if you got into trouble call 911 or go to the nearest police station.

    If a man is willing to threaten to beat up a young woman for a minor mistake in traffic, he has got to be considered capable of anything. That's just crazy.

    JM

    oops - just realized the poster is a guy. Sorry Mark. I saw the 5'7" and 125 lbs and just assumed. My bad. Ok my advice still holds true since you are a young guy and not exactly a threatening figure. The guy was nuts.
     
  18. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    Your best bet is to drive to a police station or somewhere there are lot of cameras. Then just sit in your car with the windows up and the radio on and totally ignore him.
     
  19. gripper

    gripper Member

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    its been my experience that people who feel "annonymous"in situations,wheter in a car ,or other settings involvingreal or imagined "wrongs" CAN and WILL have abn attack of the stupids.
    I've had strangers pull in behind me at the gas pump with a head of steam,while being egged on by their girlfriend.And the funny thing was they were cut off by the car in FRONT of me.Awful funny how they suddenly don't want to continue when the one they menace gives them their FULL attention.
    Honest to God, the best general attitude is to scrupulously avoid what can be avoided. don't fight over anything but physical threats and aggression. But when you can't avoid it,do your level, best to keep safe....and that means making it costly for heim(or her) to continue the assault.

    1)Eyes and ears-know where you are& what/who's around you.

    2) Escape& evasion,get clear where you can

    3)Use your unarmed combatives (where necessary) only to either esacpe,or make it to an equalized( if not actually carrying something.

    4)Do what's necessary to brek it off and or end the attack....sometimes this means escape,sometimes it means put him down and DON'T stop halfway. More people gethurt or killed in confrontations because they stopped too early.....and took their eyes off of the threat.

    5)NEVER get creative with the scene,evidence or events...not all cops are brilliant, but most of the good ones can smell a lie,even one you cooked up to sound "better",or tpo remove any doubt of your "good citizenship"status......that only bites you on th @ss when you get in front of a judge.
     
  20. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    Speaking as a one time traffic safety instructor in California, Skeetlover's state; at an intersection controlled by four-way stop signs, the first driver to stop at the intersection has the right of way. When two or more drivers arrive and stop at the same time, the driver to the right has the right of way.

    When all four drivers arrive at the intersection and stop at the same time, some headwork and courtesy has to prevail.

    There is nothing wrong when head to head drivers go at the same time, as long as one doesn't turn in front of the other. It this situation, it is probably best that someone take the initiative and yield the right of way to the other driver.

    Pilgrim
     
  21. Carlos Cabeza

    Carlos Cabeza Member

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    ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation. You have nothing to prove to anyone. Apologize and drive away, even if you KNOW you are right. Just let it go. That guy will eventually get what he's got coming, hopefully from an off duty LEO. There was an incident here last summer where a young, strong buck and an older gentleman got into the same situation as you described. The young and dumb guy got shot in the head right in the intersection. Old guys do not like to fist fight. Yes he is in prison, but he's alive. Nothing good ever comes from anger and hostility.
     
  22. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Don't do that.
    If someone yells profanity, honks, or gives you the bird, you are in not required to reciprocate. Some people are just looking for an excuse to hurt someone, so don't engage them, and don't stand out in the crowd.
     
  23. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    Of course the discussion over the legality of crossing out of turn with a "parallel car" is moot since he never bothered to stop in the first place.
     
  24. Tharg

    Tharg Member

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    When i said go on about your day - i guess i was refering as to my situation - my drive to work is usually long and i can't say anyone ever getting wierd on me for whatever amount of time did it before i had 30+ more minutes to drive. =) hehehe

    SO i guess yer right - lose the tail first. Altho i'd think that a nice crowded parking lot would be helpful - a lot more helpful than wherever it sounded like Mark pulled off.

    The only time i really recall someone getting funky - i was doing the speed limit in the fast lane. (for whatever reason the middle and slow lanes were not going even that fast.) I got tired of tickets long ago - so thats what i do. The guy behind me didn't appreciate the fact that i wasn't moving cause he was behind me. He didn't flash lights or anything - just tailgating like a witch.

    I pulled over into the middle lane when i had a chance, he passed me and flipped me the bird etc etc. got back into the fast lane.

    I SWEAR less than a mile later - he was flying across 2 lanes of traffic to get to an exit... not only that he had been watching where i was (i guess like i had been him) and flipped me off again as he was exiting the highway...

    ROFL - I just can't imagine... <shrug>

    J/Tharg!
     
  25. thatguy

    thatguy Member

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    I am always amazed at how some people will get violent over such trivial things like who went first at stop sign. But it happens. In 1975 I was driving on a lonely highway late at night when a driver went nuts at me because I was driving the speed limit and he wanted to go faster. I don't know why he didn't simply pass me. I guess he was looking for trouble. He almost found it.

    He tailgated me and flashed his lights for several miles. I kept waving for him to pass but he didn't. I finally pulled over on the shoulder and stopped to let him by. But he stopped ahead of me and jumped out with a long lug wrench in his hand, screaming obscenities and insults. I stepped out of my car and stood behind the open door. He couldn't see the 6.5 inch S&W Model 29 .44 magnum I held in my hand behind the door. He was 10 steps away and advancing. I decided that when he took step number 6 I would put a 240 grain JHP in his chest. I never said a word. He took 5 steps and stopped. He ranted and raved for about 30 seconds not knowing he was one step from eternity. He then turned and left.

    I will tell you this. If an agitated man approaches me, yelling and threatening me, I take that as a clear and present danger. Assuming that a man isn't serious when he tells you to your face that he intends to hurt you is a good way to get hurt or killed. In my state if you tell someone you intend to attack them that is grounds for self-defense.

    I would have waved and said "sorry." If he persisted I would have said "sorry" again and then ask him to leave as he is now causing me to fear for my safety. If he keeps coming at me after I have warned him, well... I have to see him as a serious threat.

    In this case, a minor impoliteness at a stop sign led to an outrageous overreaction. The irate driver's actions would be considered assualt in many states. I would certainly have feared for my safety had I been subjected to such abuse. If it had been me, that man screaming and cursing may very have have gotten shot when he approached my car.
     
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