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RRA and SBR

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ServiceSoon, Aug 16, 2006.

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  1. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    I just wanted to drop everybody a note that Rock River Arms (www.rockriverarms.com) doesnt sell short barreled rifles to the general public.

    When companies have policies that prevent eligible citizens from purchasing a rifle that one is legal to buy it is quite discouraging. I guess I just added another company to the list that I dont do business with. Does anybody know the reasoning behind their thinking?
     
  2. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Uh, buy a LAR-15 pistol and a buttstock.
     
  3. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    Will they sell to a class 3 dealer?

    Be sure to get an approved Form 1 before you get the buttstock.
     
  4. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    Chill out. Don't get all flustered.

    I'm an NFA dealer. And I sell quite a few RRA guns. I talked to them at SHOT. They said that it just wasn't really part of their business plan. They are working at full capacity on their other projects that are more lucarative than SBRs.

    Remington doesn't sell SBRs either. Those bastards. Let's boycott everybody! :)

    What is with us gun people? It isn't like we don't have enough actual enemies without having to fabricate more.
     
  5. HCfan

    HCfan Member

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    You can get the buttstock before being approved, just don't put it on. But then again, I just waited when I did mine.

    RRA, like some other companies, just don't sell direct to people who don't have an FFL01. Like Mossburg (IIRC) won't sell a virgin receiver to an individual going through an FFL. They will sell it to the FFL and then the FFL sells it to you.

    Just ask your FFL to order one for you if you want it and hopefully they will sale it to you at a lower than normal % that they would usually sell.

    All of the SBR's and SBS's that I have I made myself. Just go to the ATF page and print out the Form 1, fill it out, put your $200 with it and then get approval.

    Also, you have to fill out the Form 4. The company can't do it for you and neither can your FFL. You are the one that has to fill it out, get your CLEO to sign it, get the finger prints and submit, with payment, to the ATF. Just too much paperwork involved and waiting period. It's just easier for them to sell to an FFL and then the FFL sell to you.
     
  6. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    "If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?

    Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items."

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m24
     
  7. Hemicuda

    Hemicuda member

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    wdlsguy

    I beg to differ...

    I own Thompson-Center Contender frames, barrels, and pistol and rifle stocks... The rifle stocks only go on the 16" and 21" barrels, but I OWN 10", 12", and 14" barrels...

    You are telling me mere posession of a Contender frame, with say, my 10" .22 barrel, AND a shoulder stock is a felony? i don't think so...

    The felony would be putting the shoulder stock ON the frame, with a short (under 16") barrel also on that frame...

    I am totally legal OWNING the frame, stocks, and barrels, I just gottA be careful what I put together...
     
  8. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    Unless you also own a rifle barrel, BATFE calls that constructive possession.
     
  9. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Hemicuda,

    wdlsguy merely posted the BATF FAQ on the subject. If you disagree, your disagreement is with the feds, not wdlsguy.
     
  10. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    Its a private business. They can chose what they sell, and to whom they sell it.

    The best way to protest is to buy from another manufacturer.
     
  11. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    UPDATE

    Bushmaster will only sell sbr rifles to law enforcement too. Neither company will sell complete sbr rifles to an FFL that holds a class III license. :fire: What is going on? I feel like I am in the communist twilight zone. :neener:

    I really wanted to buy a complete rifle to insure I am getting a weapon that was manufactured to work together. It makes more sense to buy some thing that was designed to work together than it is to piece together something, from a reliability standpoint, at least in my opinion. I dont really have a choice in that matter since these wonderful American companies :rolleyes: are in opposition to (for whatever reason) selling these types of weapons to eligible citizens. As an example to the reliability arguement, I have heard that shorter rifles have something called M4 feed ramps. This prevents jams that are caused by using a shorter barrel rifle than the ar15 action was designed for.

    I will have to do what many of you have suggested, that is to buy a complete lower and fill out a form 1. Im not sure filing a form 4 is necessary after filing a form 1. :confused: I will definitely look into that. Thank you to those who are leading me down the right path! I will let you know how this goes. Keep tuned to this thread.
     
  12. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Member

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    OMG THAT'S IT!!!!


    RRA IS ANTI-GUN.


    Boycott them!

















    (that's how Colt is treated)
     
  13. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    Be sure to drop in on the general class 3 forum at ar15.com if you have questions about the process.

    Not until you decide to sell your SBR to someone else.
     
  14. 444

    444 Member

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    As was mentioned, you do a form 1 to register the lower as an SBR. That's it. Form 1 is the form to manufacture an NFA firearm. You are manufacturing (putting an upper on a lower), so you need to do a form 1.

    Form 4 is the form to transfer an NFA firearm. If you were buying the complete rifle, you would need to do a form 4.


    I have never tried to buy a complete SBR and don't see any reason to do so. Bushmaster will see you a complete upper. You can order a complete Bushmaster lower through a dealer. You put the two together and woop there it is. Buying a complete rifle means that instead of you putting a random upper on a randow lower, the manufacturer puts a random upper on a random lower. There is no more to it than that.

    As far as I know, Bushmaster doesn't have M4 feed ramps. Millions of AR15 and M16 rifles and carbines have been sold and fired for 40 years without M4 feed ramps. And, the feed ramps have nothing to do with short barrels.
     
  15. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    You are required to engrave your name, city and state on the receiver when "making" an SBR on a Form 1. I used Steve@tomsawyermfg.com for my SBR engraving. You can send your receiver off for engraving at the same time you send your paperwork to BATFE.
     
  16. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    That only applies when you've finished a receiver, correct? If you buy a finished receiver and then SBR it, you just submit the original manufacturer name, location, and serial number. If you take an 80% receiver and finish it that's when you have to put your name and location. Is that correct?
     
  17. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    This is still a gray area, I think.

    What if you own a plain-jane 20" AR-15? It has a buttstock on it, made to be removed with a simple tool, which you probably also own for doing maintenance.

    Would that mean you can't buy an AR pistol? You possess the buttstock, and it could be attached.

    What about 1911 carbine kits? You have a 16" barrel that comes with the kit, along with the buttstock. But you also probably still own the original 1911 pistol barrel.

    I think what they mean is that, if you have a 1911 and a buttstock that fits on it in a case or on the premises, that's an SBR, even if you don't have the buttstock attached at the moment. This is intended to prevent someone from detaching the stock, to avoid prosecution.

    Basically, the law is written and applied so that it's easy for them to "bust" someone who is doing nothing wrong. This means it's at the discretion of the DOJ. Not a good thing.

    Hell, the whole NFA doesn't make much sense. Though gun control is generally ineffective, the details of the law might have had some validity when the guns described were particularly useful for certain sorts of crime. That doesn't mean they stopped crime; I doubt there was any effect. But maybe there was some logic to the rules about barrel length, etc. Now, though, technology has really made those old guns obsolete, and the rules seem totally arbitrary.
     
  18. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    See 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2)(iii) and 27 CFR 479.102(a)(2)(iv).

    http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_06/27cfr479_06.html

    Sorry, I don't know anything about 80% receivers. :eek:
     
  19. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    You can buy an AR pistol. Just make sure you don't install the pistol upper on the rifle lower.

    Just make sure you install the 16" barrel before you attach the buttstock.
     
  20. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    That was my point about "constructive possession."

    If you have the parts to make the 1911 receiver into a carbine and to make it a pistol, you also have the parts to make it into an SBR.

    So, if you have the parts that COULD be used legitimately, then "constructive possession" is replaced by a more sensible "manner in which the parts are assembled" principle.

    HOWEVER, I wouldn't put it past F Troop to try to show "constructive possession" if they were so inclined. What would the courts say?
     
  21. rob_s

    rob_s Member

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    Funny that Colt released 6933s and many non-leo individuals bought them, they are also releasing another batch, and they are releasing an SBR version of the 1020 (1033?).
     
  22. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Member

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    Velocity

    What does this do to the bullet velocity and the accuracy?

    Rock River has 10.5 inch and 7 inch barrels.

    Any idea?

    Is a 5.56 mm round out of a 7 inch barrel effective? What is it's velocity? Is it still a good hundred - two hundred yard gun?
     
  23. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    I believe Thompson-Center took BATFE to court over this very issue and won, which is why we can start with a pistol, reconfigure it as a rifle, and reconfigure it again as a pistol without being hassled.
     
  24. 444

    444 Member

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    Malum Prohibitum
    Let me save you a potential headache.
    It is pretty generally accepted that the 11 1/2" uppers are as short as you can go and still have something that runs without being tweaked. When you get shorter than that function becomes and issue and may require a lot of tinkering to get it working. I have a 7" upper and it doesn't work. I haven't spent much time playing with it, I am sure I willl eventually get it working but the odds of it working out of the box are slim IMO.

    The effective range of any weapon is a function of the ammo you are using and your definition of effective. I absolutely guarantee that most of the answers you get to this question will give you ranges for MILITARY BALL AMMO. If you shoot military ball ammo, then the numbers mean something. If you don't they are meaningless. I personally have fired a truck load of .223 ammo as a civilian and not one single round of it was military ball ammo. So, when these fragmenation ranges (that are given in every thread about the AR15) mean nothing to me. Unlike the military, I am free to use handloads complete with V-Max bullets, Ballistic Tip bullets, Hollow Points, Softpoints or whatever I want.
    If you are worried about terminal performance, don't choose a 7" upper. It is mostly a toy. Not completely a toy, but close.
     
  25. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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