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Ruger g.s. Scout rifle.

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by krupparms, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. wlewisiii

    wlewisiii Member

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    This ^ Especially the mag issue. After test firing one, that alone was enough to convince me that I didn't want one. Perhaps if it took M1A mags for .308 or STANAG in .223 it would be worth putting up with them sticking out like that. But for a single stack proprietary magazine? Thanks but no thanks, I'll stick to a mauser type internal stripper fed magazine instead.
     
  2. baz

    baz Member

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    Other than weight, what's your beef with it? They didn't call it a "Gunsite Scout" rifle on their own. Their use of the name has the approval of Gunsite. Not everyone shares your view of what Cooper might have thought about it:
     
  3. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    My understanding is they use Accuracy international magazines...not proprietary
     
  4. krupparms

    krupparms Member

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    Good catch HOOfan! My magazine is marked with Accuracy Inl. markings! You are right. I was woundering why mine was not marked RUGER!
     
  5. ECVMatt

    ECVMatt Member

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    I have had a GSR for quite some time now. It is a great rifle and works well for me. It is super accurate, has a good trigger, strong action, iron sights, and two different scope mounting positions. The mag thing is over done. They tried to use the M14 style mag, but it did not work. They went with Accuracy International mags and they did. As an aside, I used modified m14 mags in my Ruger Frontier and it more or less sucked. Yes it worked, but was hard as hell to chamber rounds. The AI mags feed like butter. They are also available from many sources other than Ruger. I have steel mags, but would also like to try the Ruger poly mags.

    I really don't Think Cooper would be aghast at the sight of a Ruger GSR. It was developed at his beloved Gunsite with major input from their top instructors. While it might not be a "pure" scout, not many are. Cooper himself often pointed out the difficulty in producing them at reasonable cost. I think he would be more pleased with a broader embrace of his ideals than to nitpick the small points.
     
  6. natman

    natman Member

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    The magazine sticks out too far for styling reasons.

    Yes, I'm well aware that once Jeff Cooper was safely dead, the current owners of Gunsite sold out to Ruger. But you have a good point; it's perfectly fair to say that the GSR conforms to the current Gunsite ownership's idea of what a Scout rifle should be. It just doesn't conform to Jeff Cooper's idea of what a Scout rifle should be.

    Perhaps we should look at what Cooper himself thought about it:

    [emphasis added]

    So I think it's fair to say that unless a rifle is short, light and handy, it doesn't fit Jeff Cooper's idea of what a scout rifle should be.

    Well, at least the GSR is short. No amount of talking is going to make it light and handy.
     
  7. BruceB

    BruceB Member

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    I almost hate to break this to you, but to SOME of us the GSR IS "short, light and handy".

    Spend a few years (or many) hauling full-size FALs, M14s, or even such things as Model 70 or Springfield '03 sporters, and there is a VERY REAL difference in the GSR.

    It's a fact of life in firearms design that if one intends to have the capability for even limited 'sustained fire' (a possible requirement of a GSR), a certain amount of STEEL is needed to resist the effects of heat build-up. I consider the GSR to meet that need with a bare minimum of weight for its role in MY armory.

    Of course, I'm ex-infantry, so my opinions were formed "in the field", as it were..... not from magazines or textbooks.
     
  8. natman

    natman Member

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    The point is not whether or not the GSR meets MY definition of a Scout rifle or YOUR definition, but Jeff Cooper's definition. This is well documented and the GSR simply does not meet it. Period.

    If you can find something in Cooper's writings that supports the contention that he would consider an 8+ lb (with the magazine, scope and sling, not Ruger's advertised weight) 308 carbine "light" or a magazine that protrudes several inches beyond the trigger guard as "handy", then I'll be glad to reconsider.

    The point that seems to be universally missed is that the GSR is a good rifle for lots of applications. If you are happy with yours, more power to you.

    It just doesn't conform to Cooper's idea of a Scout rifle, no matter what semantic gymnastics you perform in a vain attempt to make it so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  9. W L Johnson

    W L Johnson Member

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    That keeps killing it for me. @$%#! mags reminds me of a Sailboat Fin Keel.
     
  10. baz

    baz Member

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    I don't see "style" in "short, light, and handy," though I will concede that to some the long magazine might detract from how "handy" they perceive it to be. But if that's the case, there are now the 5 round polymer magazines to address that, and even help a bit with the weight.

    I concede, too, that tricked out with a scope and sling, and a five round polymer mag, the rifle is still likely (I have not done any scientific analysis) to be a bit above the upper end some times quoted for the weight of a "legitimate" scout rifle (7.7 lbs). But not by much. And if that is all that is left of criticizing it, then it comes close to the Cooper ideal.

    Then the question becomes what Cooper might have thought about that. And no one knows. Not even you. The OP made a point about what he thought Cooper would think of the GSR. You disagreed. I cited a source to suggest that others think Cooper might have like the GSR. You still wonder about that. And that's all we can do, unless Cooper speaks to us somehow from beyond the grave.

    Meanwhile, let's shift the focus of the debate a bit. It seems that the idea of a scout rifle, along the lines conceived by Cooper, has become, or is becoming, a popular notion among shooters. So the question I have is this: If the idea is popular, and Cooper's criteria are so determinative of what we think the scout rifle should be, then why aren't there more commercial rifles that satisfy the criteria? The benchmark is the Steyr, of course, but it is very expensive. Is that the problem, that Cooper's criteria are hard to satisfy in a mass produced rifle, without going to a lot of expense? Besides having some specific ideas about what a scout rifle should be, I think Cooper would have wanted it to be available to everyman as well, and not a rifle just for the elite. And maybe that is just not possible, without some compromises.

    In the end, no one knows what Cooper would have thought about the GSR. Perhaps he would have approved, on the grounds that while not perfect, it was close, and at half (or one third) the price of a Steyr, made it more accessible to the common man. Who knows?

    Moreover, while Cooper "owned" a particular definition of a "scout rifle," the idea antedated his formulation. So while the GSR might not meet Cooper's criteria precisely, as has already been noted, many do find it "short, light, and handy" and thus deserving of the descriptive term "scout rifle" on its own merits.

    The term "scout rifle" has come to apply to a lot of variations that might not meet Cooper's criteria, strictly speaking. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, perhaps "short, light, and handy" is also. I understand why you challenged the OP's remark. He cannot know what Cooper would have thought of the GSR, any more than you can. We can make some objective assessments, as you have done with weight, and point out where it falls short of Cooper's criteria. But that doesn't nullify calling the GSR a "scout rifle." If enough people think of it as a "scout rifle," that it what it is. I own three "scout" rifles, none of which would meet Cooper's criteria. Some would rather refer to these types of rifles as "Pseudo scouts." But that enshrines Cooper's definition as the only possible one. I do not buy that. Cooper deserves all the credit we can give him for popularizing the concept, and giving it concrete expression, but with language being what it is, no one can stop the term "scout rifle" from being used to refer to guns that do not meet his criteria perfectly. I'm not so sure that he would mind that, as long as he got the credit for the general idea. But again, who knows?
     
  11. krupparms

    krupparms Member

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    Baz is right! I or anyone else will never know what Mr. Cooper would have said about the Ruger GSR. It was just my opinion. I agree with Baz though, I think it meets the criteria set forth by Cooper. To me it is short, light & handy! Some may feel otherwise! That's your choice but to most I believe it will be a scout rifle! Say what you want to, but I am happy with it & that's all that counts in the end! :)
     
  12. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    Has Jeff Cooper come back from the grave and commented on it?
     
  13. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    I emailed MPI stocks specifically about making a polymer stock for the Ruger GS scout. They can make one in about 3 months for $800 that would likely shave a pound or more off the weight. Of course that price starts to get you to the Styer scout.
     
  14. natman

    natman Member

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    Obviously not. However, his opinions on the subject are well documented and one can reasonably extrapolate what his reaction would have been.

    Either the weight is within the limit or it's not. It's not, and it could easily have been with a more judicious choice of stock materials. A word on the weight limit is in order. The original limit was 3 kilos (6.7 lbs). This was later expanded to 3.5 kilos (7.7 lbs) to accommodate long action “pseudo-scouts”, larger caliber versions with heavier barrels and the Steyr Scout, which was somewhat over the original limit due to the inclusion of a bipod, extra magazine holder and second magazine. The Ruger has none of these features.

    I think it's fair to say that Jeff Cooper was a big fan of function over form and - IMHO - sacrificing handiness for the sole purpose of making the rifle look like an M14 probably would not have gone over well.

    In other words, if Jeff Cooper had designed a Scout Rifle with access to Ruger's resources, I don't think it would have had a stock made of the heaviest material commonly used for stock building and I don't think it would have had its current magazine design. One need look no further than the magazine on the Steyr Scout, a rifle he DID have a hand in designing, to confirm that.

    Here's a few of Cooper's actual quotes on the subject:
    These are all from Volumes 1-3 in Cooper's Commentaries. There are plenty more.
     
  15. john wall

    john wall Member

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    As an old head who actually has a Ruger GSR and shoots it, I can say it fills the bill of short, light and handy. I sold five guns this model simply outclassed and replaced.

    BTW, this gun IS a controlled feed '98 type. I will only own a '98 type if a turnbolt gun. Feeding is silky smooth with a variety of bullet designs. Get a few extra mags.

    If the gun is too heavy for you, quit stuffing your piehole with cheeseburgers and cake, and go to the gym. You also need to carry water, food, bedding, and extra ammo if in the field or in a "situation". If this is too heavy for you, take steps to fix that.

    The first time I took mine to the range, I fired about 100 rds through it. I was amazed at the mild recoil of this arm with full throttle loads. The second time, 80+ rds. When I take it to the range, I fire every round I have. The only negative about the gun is the ease with which large quantities of ammo are consumed.

    I reluctantly installed a Loopie Scout scope, simply because the irons on the gun made 200 yd steel silhouette hits a sure thing.

    A 6-something pound rifle would be great to carry, but in 308 it would be miserable to shoot. I would like to see this arm in 260 Remington.

    I like the gun the way it is. You can always drop a couple of grand on a set up Steyr, while realizing they sold high performance battle arms to our enemies that have been used against us.

    My REAL 1898 Mauser is an FN-equipped 1948 Husqvarna Sporter in 8X57S. This gun weighs in at less than 7 pounds and will give you a butt-kicking when you shoot it.

    Jeff was a good guy with good ideas, but his ideas were from another time. I don't drink Jeff's Kool Aid. He thought Glocks sucked. Thought the Bren Ten was the Holy Grail. Missed the mark on those.
     
  16. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    You're misinformed. The rifle uses the magazines it does, because those magazines are as close to ubiquitous as a detachable bolt action rifle magazine gets, and they were designed for use on a bolt action rifle, by accuracy international for use on their R700 chassis.
     
  17. natman

    natman Member

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    It appears you don't understand the concept of "handiness" and why weight you carry in your hand is a lot more important than weight you carry in your pack.

    I own a 6.2 lb 308 and have no problem with the recoil. Perhaps you should go to the gym....:)

    Your perfectly free to disagree with what Jeff Cooper said. I only take exception to those who misstate what he said.
     
  18. natman

    natman Member

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    I'm pretty sure the GSR resembles an M14 and I don't think it's a coincidence:

    GSRvM14_zps05bf56e8.jpg
     
  19. chicharrones
    • Contributing Member

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    C'mon now. Ruger already has a replica of the M14, which we all know is a Mini. ;)

    What is unspoken, is that the Ruger GSR is really the lovechild of the Jungle Carbine and a short barreled sniper rifle, like a Steyr. The original issue mags that come with the Ruger GSR just got too much Viagra, that's all.
     
  20. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    so, you're saying the ruger design team sourced non proprietary AICS magazines, not because they actually work, but because they make the rifle look more like an m-14.
     
  21. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    You're misinformed. The rifle uses the magazines it does, because those magazines are as close to ubiquitous as a detachable bolt action rifle magazine gets, and they were designed for use on a bolt action rifle, by accuracy international for use on their R700 chassis.

    So some of you would consider these magazines as "Off the Shelf " and not proprietary?
    Can you buy them now from either Accuracy International or Ruger?
    The point I am making here as they made a choice and from the stuff I have seen your magazines are going to cost you in the $80.00 and up neighborhood.
    I'm just saying that Ruger has went a very long way to find a magazine that works in a rifle they designed.
    Now did they design the rifle around the magazine or the magzine around the rifle?
     
  22. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    the magazine was designed to run in bolt action rifles that weren't designed from the beginning to have detachable magazines, like the remington 700 and the ruger m77.

    the GSR action is fundamentally unchanged from its parent rifle, the ruger m77.

    ruger had no design input on the magazine, AI just did a good job designing the magazine to work.
     
  23. nipprdog

    nipprdog Member

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    Not.
     
  24. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    I shot one. Good rifle. But I wouldn't call it a scout rifle except that's the label for it. :) I think it would make a good truck gun, particularly if a shorter mag was used. And, not bad at all for a basic hunting rifle.
     
  25. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    I want a Scout variant of the 77/44. I know it's not the Colonel's "vision", but it would make the sweetest little Hill Country deer and pig rifle!

    How 'bout it Ruger?
     
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