Ruger Old Army with conversion cylinder.

[LonesomePigeon]

What diameter bullets work best in the ROA with .45 Colt conversion cylinder? Since the ROA was designed for .457" roundballs do they need .454" bullets when using a conversion cylinder, or will the more common .452" bullets work? Would they need custom molded .456" cast bullets?

 

[Captain*kirk]

What diameter bullets work best in the ROA with .45 Colt conversion cylinder? Since the ROA was designed for .457" roundballs do they need .454" bullets when using a conversion cylinder, or will the more common .452" bullets work? Would they need custom molded .456" cast bullets?

Wish I had the answer...I would suggest getting ahold of @45 Dragoon as he probably has more experience with converted ROAs than anyone else I know of.

 

[gwpercle]

I would slug the barrel and measure the diameter . It may be smaller than you think .
I have read that Ruger used .452" barrels ... but you need to measure yours and go from there .
If the conversion cylinder throats are not overly large , .452" or .454" bullets may work just fine .
Drive a round ball through the barrel and you can find out for sure ... Good Luck !
Load Safe ,
Gary

 

[45 Dragoon]

What diameter bullets work best in the ROA with .45 Colt conversion cylinder? Since the ROA was designed for .457" roundballs do they need .454" bullets when using a conversion cylinder, or will the more common .452" bullets work? Would they need custom molded .456" cast bullets?

The .457" was designated because it exposes more bearing surface when pressed into the .452" chamber. The rifling twist is 1:16" instead of 1"32" .

Mike

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Old Army cylinders are .453. As far as I know the barrels are .451. I shoot .452 hard cast bullets for 45 ACP in my Old Armies. They are very accurate.

 

[dickydalton]

I use .452 in 45 Colt for mine.

 

[PapaG]

My first loads were with a button nose wadcutter and a charge of Bullseye which shot to the same sight setting as my round ball load so I never worried about it. Mine were .452.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

If you mean 45 Colt Cartridges then you want “Cowboy Loads.
Check out MagTec.

 

[shunka]

In a Ruger Old Army with a conversion cylinder you can shoot any commercial .45 Colt loads, not just “cowboy”.
these things are built like tanks.

as others have stated, slug your bore and your cylinders, then buy or cast what fits

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I haven't measured anything yet and I might not need to because it seems to shoot pretty good with the first load I tried. At the moment I only have access to an indoor range with not very good lighting so this was shot at only 10 yards.

shunka I know the ROA is built like a tank but Ruger does not make the conversion cylinder. The one I have looks to be a Howell brand. This is what they say at the Howell website "Use only cowboy ammunition that does not exceed 850 FPS; never use hot or jacketed ammunition."



Load is Lyman #454190 250 grain bullet cast from 1:40 tin and lead, sized to .454", lamb tallow and beeswax lube, CCI large pistol primer and 5.0 grains of Red Dot. This is a mild load, probably 600-700 feet per second.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I won this Old Army at an auction at my club a couple of years ago.

It came with a box of .457 diameter balls, which were considered standard for this model.

Here are a couple of targets fired at two different ranges with the Ruger as a C&B revolver. I think the 25 foot target is better simply because I was holding better, not because the revolver was more accurate at that distance. Also, the target on the right was shot two handed from a rest. Not sure about the 15 foot target, this was a few years ago.

I contacted the folks at Howell Arms and had them make up a 45 Colt conversion cylinder for it. The conversion cylinder is on the left in this photo.

The conversion cylinder is on the left in this photo.

Notice both 45 Colt ammo as well as 45 Schofield ammo, with the slightly larger rims, fit into the conversion cylinder.

Ken Howell is actually retired now, and a couple of nice folks are running the company for him. When I called to order the conversion cylinder, they asked for a measurement. I forget at this point exactly what they wanted me to measure, probably the length of the C&B cylinder. They made the conversion cylinder to the same length.



Anyway, in answer to the question, I load my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges with .452 diameter Big Lube bullets. I do not recall if I slugged the bore of the Old Army or not. I cannot imagine I didn't, but if I did I don't recall what the groove diameter is. Anyway, I always load all my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges with .452 bullets, and they worked just fine in the Old Army.

Just for the fun of it, here is the Old Army with five of my 45 Colt rounds as well as five of my 45 Schofield rounds. It was a few years ago, but I think I only fired the revolver with the 45 Colt rounds, not the Schofield rounds.

HOWEVER......... When shooting my Black Powder 45 Colt rounds out of the conversion cylinder, the cylinder tended to bind. This is not because of the BP fouling, I decided the fired rounds were slapping back against the cylinder cap and forcing the cylinder open just a couple of thousandths. I believe this is what was causing the cylinder to bind. In the future I will have a machinist friend shave just a teeny amount off the cylinder bushing, probably only about .002 or so. This should open the Barrel/Cylinder gap up about an extra .002, allowing the cylinder cap to open up ever so slightly and prevent binding.

Have not gotten around to doing it yet, if I ever do I will report the results here.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I haven't measured anything yet and I might not need to because it seems to shoot pretty good with the first load I tried. At the moment I only have access to an indoor range with not very good lighting so this was shot at only 10 yards.

shunka I know the ROA is built like a tank but Ruger does not make the conversion cylinder. The one I have looks to be a Howell brand. This is what they say at the Howell website "Use only cowboy ammunition that does not exceed 850 FPS; never use hot or jacketed ammunition."

View attachment 1262088

Load is Lyman #454190 250 grain bullet cast from 1:40 tin and lead, sized to .454", lamb tallow and beeswax lube, CCI large pistol primer and 5.0 grains of Red Dot. This is a mild load, probably 600-700 feet per second.

That bit about not exceeding 850FPS is misleading. I have said this until I am blue in the face, but excess velocity does not cause cylinders to burst, EXCESS PRESSURE causes cylinders to burst.

Way back about 20 years ago when I bought the conversion cylinder of my old 1858 Remington, the advice was the same. Do not exceed 850 fps. But it is easy to duplicate a specific velocity with different pressures by using different recipes. One recipe for 850 fps may develop one pressure, another recipe may deliver a different pressure. Also, there is no SAAMI standard for 'cowboy ammo' pressure. It does not exist. Commercial 'cowboy ammo' can vary widely in pressure, but it is probably all below the SAAMI max of 14,000 psi for 45 Colt. But no commercial 'cowboy ammo' lists the pressure on the box.

I have never fired Smokeless in my Old Army, have no intention to do so. If I did though, I would go to one of my loading manuals which actually lists PRESSURE, and I would choose a recipe which is well below the standard SAAMI max of 14,000 psi.

 

[45 Dragoon]

That bit about not exceeding 850FPS is misleading. I have said this until I am blue in the face, but excess velocity does not cause cylinders to burst, EXCESS PRESSURE causes cylinders to burst.

Way back about 20 years ago when I bought the conversion cylinder of my old 1858 Remington, the advice was the same. Do not exceed 850 fps. But it is easy to duplicate a specific velocity with different pressures by using different recipes. One recipe for 850 fps may develop one pressure, another recipe may deliver a different pressure. Also, there is no SAAMI standard for 'cowboy ammo' pressure. It does not exist. Commercial 'cowboy ammo' can vary widely in pressure, but it is probably all below the SAAMI max of 14,000 psi for 45 Colt. But no commercial 'cowboy ammo' lists the pressure on the box.

I have never fired Smokeless in my Old Army, have no intention to do so. If I did though, I would go to one of my loading manuals which actually lists PRESSURE, and I would choose a recipe which is well below the standard SAAMI max of 14,000 psi.

I don't think it's about the pressure so much but more the support for the cartridge. The Howell cylinder cap backs up to the recoil shield with a 50% footprint (as you can see on the uninstalled cyl) behind the case in firing position. The Kirst setup uses a conversion ring or plate that covers all of the recoil shield and offers full support for the case to back up against.


I am not affiliated with Kirst conversions in any way and yes, that's a Ron Wells hammer and trigger in the ROA! (not affiliated with him either )

Mike

 

[unspellable]

Lot of misunderstanding about the 850 fps limit. It's not about pressure. The Howell cylinder by itself is rated for any standard factory load. The 850 fps limit is out of respect for the frame on most replicas. Not the best steel and subject to battering. Witness the brass frames are even worse in this respect. The Old Army is essentially a Blackhawk frame with good steel and is good to go with any factory load.

As for "cowboy" loads, I have Winchester's cowboy loads and they are rated for the same velocity as the standard load. Only difference I can find is the box they came in.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Lot of misunderstanding about the 850 fps limit. It's not about pressure. The Howell cylinder by itself is rated for any standard factory load. The 850 fps limit is out of respect for the frame on most replicas. Not the best steel and subject to battering. Witness the brass frames are even worse in this respect. The Old Army is essentially a Blackhawk frame with good steel and is good to go with any factory load.

As for "cowboy" loads, I have Winchester's cowboy loads and they are rated for the same velocity as the standard load. Only difference I can find is the box they came in.

It is (or was) plainly stated when I bought the cartridge conversion cylinder for my EuroArms 1858 Remington that the cartridge conversion cylinders are only for steel framed revolvers, not brass framed revolvers. This was over 20 years ago.

Here is part of the pamphlet that came with my R&D cylinder many years ago. Notice it says to never use them with brass framed revolvers.

Yes, it talks about the 750 - 850 fps velocity of so called 'cowboy ammo'.

Frankly, I don't think I have ever fired Smokeless ammo in my old EuroArms Remmie. At least I don't recall doing so, but it would have been about 20 years ago if I did. Nothing but Black Powder 45 Colt ammo loaded with a full case of powder and a 250 grain bullet, or 45 Schofield ammo loaded with a full case of powder (slightly less than the 45 Colt) and a 200 grain bullet.

My BP 45 Colt ammo recoils quite stoutly, but the old Remmie has not sustained any battering to the recoil shield of the frame.

 

[45 Dragoon]

[QUOTE="Driftwood Johnson In the future I will have a machinist friend shave just a teeny amount off the cylinder bushing, probably only about .002 or so. This should open the Barrel/Cylinder gap up about an extra .002, allowing the cylinder cap to open up ever so slightly and prevent binding.
[/QUOTE]

If you shave. 002" off the bushing, that will close down you barrel / cyl gap and add .002" to your endshake. That would do the opposite of what you're looking for.

Mike

 

[Jack Ryan]

I've got an ROA and for years I wanted a conversion cylinder for it. Then when I saw what one of those cost, common sense kicked in. That cylinder is half the cost of another whole gun and a 44 mag Blackhawk is exactly like shooting the ROA with the right loads. I wouldn't even consider one of those conversion cylinders unless it just came with the gun I was buying.

 

[Roverguy]

Use soft lead @8-10 BHN for black powder loads and no more than 14 BHN for standard pressures smokeless and you can get away with more readily available .452 cast bullets.

 

[Onty]

The Old Army is essentially a Blackhawk frame with good steel and is good to go with any factory load.

Well, yes and no. Ruger Old Army frame is strong, and original cylinder is strong, just as you said. However, when conversion cylinder is made to use 45 cal. cartridges, we are getting thinner cylinder walls. I do not have any SA 1873 or similar revolver in 45 Colt to measure cylinder, but I bet that conversion cylinder for ROA is very close in walls' thickness between chambers and outside walls to original black powder era revolvers chambered in 45 Colt. In that respect, I would limit loads to original SAAMI specification for this cartridges.

If you want more powerful loads, I would go to large frame NM BH only, no 45 Colt small frames Flattop or New Vaquero.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I've got an ROA and for years I wanted a conversion cylinder for it. Then when I saw what one of those cost, common sense kicked in. That cylinder is half the cost of another whole gun and a 44 mag Blackhawk is exactly like shooting the ROA with the right loads.

So, your idea of "common sense" is to spend twice the money for another revolver instead of half the money for basically the same revolver . . . Ok.

The only way a ROA comes close to being a 44 mag equivalent is to shoot "Ruger onlys" in one with a conversion cylinder (not a Howell or Howell type) . . . and you would only have to spend half the money.

Mike

 

[unspellable]

Well, yes and no. Ruger Old Army frame is strong, and original cylinder is strong, just as you said. However, when conversion cylinder is made to use 45 cal. cartridges, we are getting thinner cylinder walls. I do not have any SA 1873 or similar revolver in 45 Colt to measure cylinder, but I bet that conversion cylinder for ROA is very close in walls' thickness between chambers and outside walls to original black powder era revolvers chambered in 45 Colt. In that respect, I would limit loads to original SAAMI specification for this cartridges.

If you want more powerful loads, I would go to large frame NM BH only, no 45 Colt small frames Flattop or New Vaquero.

Factory loads ARE limited to SAAMi specs. The Howell cylinder design was originally proofed with standard SAAMI proof loads. They'd be nuts not to do so, there's always some d****d fool can't tell one factory load from another.