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Ruger Old Model Army/KIRST KONVERTER

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by ReloaderEd, Mar 17, 2011.

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  1. ReloaderEd

    ReloaderEd Member

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    :neener:I need some help here!!!
    I just purchased a perfect Ruger blued Old Model Army Revolver, 71/2' barrel in excellent condition.

    I have been looking at the Kirst Konverter in 45 ACP. They are quite expensive and I would appreciate some imput from someone in this wonderful group who has one to answer a few questions:
    1. Does the new cylinder fit 45 Auto Rim and or half and full moon clips?

    2. Does the cylinder hold 5 or 6 cartridges?

    3. In your experience does the konverter work ok?

    Availability of brass is one reason I like the 45 ACP. Kirst says 800 fps max verlocity which is fine with me.

    I appreciate you guys help on this. Thankyou Be Safe
     
  2. rdstrain49

    rdstrain49 Member

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    Personally I would go for a New Model Blackhawk in 45 Colt / 45 ACP. Got mine for about the same price as the converter. Just my opinion.
     
  3. ClemBert

    ClemBert Member

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    Sorry for the uselessness of my post....in advance. :neener:

    I didn't even know they made a Kirst 45 ACP cylinder for the ROA. I went with 45 Colt for two reasons...its connection to the old time converted cap-n-ball revolvers of day gone by but more importantly I have another firearm that shoots 45 Colt.

    With regards to the cylinder I went with R&D (Howell) for my ROA. I have a Kirst for my Walker. Both R&D and Kirst are high quality products. I went with R&D for the ROA because from what I could tell it was easier to install during a reload. With the R&D you just roll it into place. With the Kirst, my understanding is that you have to first align the flat side of the back plate (the ring) with the bottom of the frame to slide it into place. It just seemed like more fumbling than the R&D. I could be wrong. I'd love to be able to play with a Kirst ROA cylinder to compare the two.

    Here's a short video on loading an R&D cylinder in a ROA.

    Loading the R&D Conversion Cylinder in a Ruger Old Army

    Sorry I can't answer any of your real questions. :banghead:
     
  4. ReloaderEd

    ReloaderEd Member

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    I appreciatte your reply, The video explained a lot!!!! Thank you for your time. Be Safe
     
  5. JNewell

    JNewell Member

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    FWIW, I'll echo ClemBert's post. I have used both Kirst and R&D converters. I still have two of the R&D and none of the Kirst...
     
  6. andrewstorm

    andrewstorm member

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    what cylinder?

    apples n oranges,aLTHOUGH WITH THE KIRST YOU CAN BUY BOTH CYLINDERS AND ONE BACKPLATE,ahd thus have your cake and eat it to 45 acp is plentiful but not nostalgic,load ur own 45 lc is the way to go,clemberts loads are looking a little stout :eek: all ruger aftermarket cylinders are six chamberd. If you find a good deal on a cylinder make sure the backplate is included as the cylinder only runs around 129.00 usd,and the backplate runs over 200.00 usd, ss is the way to go as it has a higher resale,some cylinders have to be fitted to thre revolver.kirst and r n d will perform this service for you............go to there web sites or taylors n co. and youll seee...........
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  7. ClemBert

    ClemBert Member

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    LOL! I guess I should have mentioned that the loads I was shooting in the video were 40 grains FFFg....and the way I was shooting the ROA is not normally how I shoot but I was sitting at a table trying to make a video and that's how it came out. I prefer to shoot one handed.
     
  8. ReloaderEd

    ReloaderEd Member

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    The video was great!!! You did an excellent job. Are the cylinder pin and lock latch separate and where do you buy them? I gues I am sold on the R&D. Midway has them also. Thank YOu for your time. Be Safe
     
  9. ClemBert

    ClemBert Member

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    You don't need to purchase a new base pin to use a conversion cylinder. I bought the Base Mountain base pin just to give my ROA a more refined look. You can use the original Ruger base pin from your ROA minus the lever and the plunger. The "ClemBert Pin" featured in the video was made by yours truly. If you want to make one for yourself you can buy an extra base pin retaining pin from MidwayUSA and with a little soldering and filing you can have your very own. BTW, the Belt Mountain pin is cheaper directly from Belt Mountain. Give them a call to see if they have a blued one in stock.

    p.s. Buy yourself 500 pieces of 45 Colt brass. It will last you a lifetime shooting with black powder.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  10. JNewell

    JNewell Member

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    The Belt Mountain pin is sort of taster's choice. I bought one but personally I hate the way it looks. :) On the other hand, it does get a whole lot of metal, with a whole lot of leverage on you, off the gun...
     
  11. andrewstorm

    andrewstorm member

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    the 45 /40 r o a

    love to see the roa jump in the hands of a good shot,my roa ss takes about 42 grains 777 3f,behind a 255 gr hornady cowboy, heavy load to say the least,but i feel safe in bear country with that load with cci mag caps,goes bang every time even after being loaded 4 mo and hunting in the rain,but i buy a fresh can every year,and shoot it all up by fall of the next year,oh and for light shooting i use pyrodex pistol pellets,with a wad and ball my roa ,s are unbelievably accurate, even with one hand:D
     
  12. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    I've toyed with the idea of getting a ROA and a R&D conversion cylinder. The more I think about it though - is it possible to make a full honest conversion of an ROA?

    What would be your caliber of choice if you actually made the full conversion to a regular brass eater? How strong could you safely go with a stainless steel ROA?

    Up to a .454 casull maybe?
     
  13. robhof

    robhof Member

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    The 45 acp conversion for the ROA is for lead rounds only, the jacketed bullets will wear the barrel faster and are less accurate, neither use clips, the cartridge mouth rests against the throat of the cylinder, so shell length and crimp have to be very precise as with the Blackhawk also. DB, the ROA is built on the Blackhawk frame and of the same metal, but not to the tolerances of the BH and shouldn't be pushed beyond cowboy action loads for your own safety, besides, accuracy suffers even with max B/p or tripple 7 loads.
     
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I'm not sure how much extra wear would result from firing jacketed .45 ACP bullets compared to lead bullets during an average lifetime of shooting, or if it's anything to even be concerned about.
    Clement's Custom Guns apparently doesn't think that it's anything to worry about.
    Both factory jacketed .45 LC & .45 ACP rounds are okay to use with ROA conversion cylinders. TaurusBob has several converted ROA's in both calibers with both R&D and Kirst conversion cylinders installed. The frame work to install the Kirsts was performed by Clement's Custom Guns. TaurusBob exclusively fires his ROA .45 LC conversions with factory jacketed ammo and obtains very good accuracy. When he asked Clement's if loading factory jacketed ammo was safe in his ROA's, he was told that doing so would be harmless to them because they're made from the same stainless steel as the Blackhawk, and that the conversion cylinders are strong enough to handle the factory jacketed ammo. But Clement's did say that only the ROA was made from steel that was strong enough to safely fire those factory cartridges on a regular basis without being harmed.

    This quote was from the thread about his newly converted ROA .45 ACP snubbie and includes photos:

    Here's a photo of TAURUSBOB's other converted ROA's from page 7 of the ROA Club thread:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=131149&d=1290733236
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  15. ReloaderEd

    ReloaderEd Member

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    I am surprised that Clem-Bert hasn't answered your questions. I have two ROA's and just got conversion cyliners for both revolvers in 45 Colt. These were NOT the KIRST cylinders. One they are more expensive and are not as easy to use in the ROA revolvers. However, the Old Army can shoot jacked ammo just fine and has the strength of Ruger Single Actions. I reload the 45 Long Colt cartridges down to around 800 ft/sec and the load is a delight to shoot.
    I am sure however, the KIRST would work just fine.
    I purchase my cylinders from Midway USA http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#conversion cylinders____-_1-2-4_8-16-32
     
  16. ClemBert

    ClemBert Member

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    What is your idea of a "full honest conversion"? Would this entail a gated cylinder, modified recoil shield for breech loading, and an extractor? If you did all of this then you'd basically have a Ruger Blackhawk on your hands so I'm not sure what the point would be. I think .45 Colt is a fine cartridge for a black powder conversion. I would keep the loadings to less than +P rounds. Pretty much any reloading manual will give you plenty of non +P configurations. Attempting to modify a ROA for .454 Casull is a bad idea IMHO.
     
  17. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    I'd just like to load brass without removing the cylinder and I like the look of the ROA over the Blackhawks, although I do own 7 blackhawks. :uhoh:

    Do I need a gated cylinder to do that? How were the early conversions done back in the late 1800's?

    How would you do it?
     
  18. andrewstorm

    andrewstorm member

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    dammit boy!!!!!!

    GET a ruger old army and shoot percussion out of it,why bother with brass? a load yer own smoker is much more fun than a modern firearm,shoot,id take a percussion gun any day over a brass belch-er......if you want authenticity get a 1858 Remington and send it to Taylor's n co.or you can buy a factory conversion just like the fellas in the 1800 s did:D oh yeah go to the kirst website and see you some real 1858 konversions...
     
  19. ClemBert

    ClemBert Member

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    Yeah, you'd end up with basically a Blackhawk if you did all the normal conversion stuff. You'd have to have a channel cut in the recoil shield. Without the channel you would not be able to breech load. Then, you'd want a gated conversion cylinder. Again, to allow for breech loading. Then, an extractor to eject the spent brass. In the end it would be near a Blackhawk. I doubt if anyone even makes a conversion cylinder for the ROA with a loading gate so I guess my suggestion is mute.

    For example, this is what it looks like on a Walker BEFORE and AFTER a conversion.

    [​IMG]

    BEFORE


    [​IMG]

    AFTER
     
  20. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    That looks great, who does that kind of conversion work?
     
  21. ClemBert

    ClemBert Member

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    The conversion cylinder is a Kirst Konverter specifically made for a Walker. It comes with a breech gate as part of the rear ring. As far as channeling out the recoil shield, some folk grind it out themselves with a dremel tool while others will send it to a gunsmith to have it done. Note that this particular conversion does not have an ejector. I just use a short wooden dowel to pop out the empty casings.
     
  22. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    Thanks clem, appreciate the info!
     
  23. RMc

    RMc Member

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    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
  24. andrewstorm

    andrewstorm member

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    good reading............

    very good indeed...........
     
  25. Marlin 45 carbine

    Marlin 45 carbine Member

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    groove diameter of the ROA is .457 - the o.d. of .45acp is .451 (jacketed slug) and .452 for cast.
    not a good match up.
    .45 Colt o.d. is .454 - .455 or so with oversizes available.
    I have a ROA but not a converter, it's something I've thought about but a max load in the ROA with a Lee mold conical is plenty potent.
    there's a smith somewhere I've read that does reaming of ROA cylinders to allow more powder and a larger slug - .457 to be loaded which if what I read can be believed really is a step up.
    interesting post.
     
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