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Rule 1!

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Yo Mama, Feb 15, 2010.

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  1. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    Guns are always loaded...right? No, I know my guns. Say my keltec p3at. Had not used it for about 6 months, and took it out of the safe to check on it. Pulled mag out, empty....right? Has to be, not used for 6 months and magazine empty. Hey just for kicks lets rack the slide.

    .....round pops out and lands on floor. Holy sh*t!

    I was not close to a ND, as my finger never touches the trigger, but man did I have a strong reinforcement for rule number 1!
     
  2. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    Rule two: Never point a firearm at anything that you do not wish to destroy...
     
  3. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    The rules become muscle memory. There are times when I am handling my guns for cleaning, etc... and I will clear them multiple times in one session sometimes just because my muscles are in that habit.
     
  4. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Long as you assume all guns are always loaded, you should stay out of trouble.
     
  5. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    The rules are there to keep everyone safe and alive. Breaking any of the rules can cause loss of life. It's good you checked your Kel-Tec and it's good you obey the rules!! If everyone would there would be no more accidents. I know that will never happen because we are all human and fallible but we can all try...

    Thanks for posting a reminder that the rules will keep you safe!
     
  6. ozhuntsman

    ozhuntsman Member

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    saying its an accident means that no one is at fault, if you don't follow the safety rules and you shoot yourself as a result it isn't an accident, becuase you should have known better and you only have yourself to blame.

    just my opinion.
     
  7. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    While totally respecting your opinion, I disagree.

    By this logic there are no traffic accidents either, because someone is almost always at fault. I think its just the common way of saying it. This one gets debated to the point of locked threads around here sometimes too, so we should probably let it go or suffer the consequences again.
     
  8. JoeSlomo

    JoeSlomo Member

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    I tend to agree.

    T
     
  9. twofifty

    twofifty Member

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    Nice thing about the rules is that they overlap such that injury or death are much less likely to happen, even if one rule is broken.

    For example, safe muzzle control will make up for poor trigger control, and vice versa, in the event a loaded gun is not made safe. Not condoning slacking off here, just pointing out that the rules overlap.
     
  10. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    Cause and effect people...No such thing as an accident or a AD...You did something wrong and it caused a bad thing to happen. That is "cause and effect". Car accident is not an accident even if we call it that. One driver did something to "cause" the "accident"...Somebody was "negligent"...:banghead:
     
  11. lions

    lions Member

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    But why was the round in the chamber in the first place? You obviously did a good job being safe, I'm just saying if you can think back to how it got in there without you knowing it you might recognize something and prevent this from happening again.
     
  12. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    Wrong. When I unload my gun it isn't loaded. When I check that a gun that's been out of my sight, even momentarily, isn't loaded, it isn't loaded. As mentioned in the other thread, the 'rules' were dumbed down about the same time as the schools were. After all, we don't want to damage someone's self esteem, even if it kills them.
     
  13. WTBguns10kOK

    WTBguns10kOK Member

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    ^^^Holy cow Dr. Analstein, it's about safety not semantics. The OP's occurrence has happened to most everyone before, not all of us are gifted with a great memory. Gun is always loaded to me...
     
  14. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    It’s not semantics. A rule, by definition, is inviolate. If you have a policy you can ignore at will, then it’s not a rule. If you claim that your rule is that all guns are always loaded, then either your guns are filthy dirty or you’re untruthful.

    Imagine you're teaching someone to safely handle a firearm and you tell them, “Rule one is that all guns are always loaded!” Now imagine that same person sees you later dry-firing your gun. His or her question to you is, “Hey, didn’t you tell me, emphatically, that all guns are always loaded? You certainly don’t seem to be treating that gun as though it were loaded.”

    If you ask me to babysit your 15 year old daughter, and we agree to a rule where I won’t molest her, you’re expecting me to obey the rule, not obey it sometime and ignore it other times. If we’re playing poker and the rules say that we each get five cards, but I sometimes take six, then you would be correct in proclaiming that I’m not obeying the rules of the game. If we play 22 hands of poker and we each get five cards, and on the 26th hand I take seven cards, I cannot say that I’ve followed the rules because I mostly followed the rules.

    No, it’s not semantics whatsoever. We remember the rules correctly because they are the policies that keep us safe, and it emphasizes the criticality of them. If you shorten them for convenience or ignorance, then you’re creating an atmosphere of complacency. That’s how bad things happen, especially with guns.
     
  15. lions

    lions Member

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    I believe the rule is, treat all guns as if they are loaded. IMHO of course. This will avoid semantics.
     
  16. The Tennessean

    The Tennessean Member

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    It takes 21 times to create a habit, so, if you have problems following the four rules here's what you do.

    Make it a point to review the four rules with yourself audibly (speak them to yourself) every single time you handle your firearms. If you have trouble remembering to review them then make a sign and post it on the wall where you keep your firearms so you always see it and remember to do it. Then, as you are handling your firearms, speak the rules again to yourself as you execute each of them.

    After doing this 21 times the "rules" will become habit, they WILL BE your instinctual behavior, you won't have to remind yourself to do them, or make it a point to do them, you'll just do them, every time until you break the habit which would be very difficult. It takes 21 times of NOT doing something to break a habit. That's how the brain works.

    Hope that helps. Not necessarily aimed at the OP, just something to think about.
     
  17. Ohio Gun Guy

    Ohio Gun Guy Member

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    Just tonight I was getting one out, I had it out the other night. I always check, clear the gun each time i pick it up. Thought about not doing it......but did it anyway. My story is less dramatic, it was just as I left it, unloaded.

    BUT thanks for sharing, this will help keep me from being lazy. :what:
     
  18. WTBguns10kOK

    WTBguns10kOK Member

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    Mainsail, do you expect me to read that? You're missing the point and wasting text. Stop for the love of this thread.
     
  19. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    I "unloaded" mine, really thought I did, emptied mag and put rounds away, when I came back and removed mag 6 months later it reinforced it also. But that does nothing as I forgot the round in the chamber.

    I never dry fire without snap caps, so trigger control was not an issue. Never quite thought of the rules overlapping as discussed, so thanks for that.
     
  20. NMGonzo

    NMGonzo Member

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    Just keep them loaded and you are always right!!
     
  21. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    I tend to agree. I would rather man up to my negligence if I unintentionally fire my gun. Negligence is fixable. Calling an unintentional discharge an accident shifts the blame and is childlike. (Note that if I'm defending myself in court, then my unintentional discharge was obviously an accident. :))
     
  22. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    I tend to agree. The KISS principle applies here and makes the world a better place.
     
  23. Big Bill

    Big Bill Member

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    After removing the mag, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS check the bore to make sure there is no cartridge in the barrel.
     
  24. smoothdraw

    smoothdraw Member

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    But most traffic accidents also happens because somebody do not follow traffic safety rules... I might be wrong.
     
  25. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    When attending a shotgun handling and tatics course put on here the instructor would check for clear even if he set it down, turned to face us to say something then turned and picked it up only a few seconds later. He made it a point to suggest to us that it's a good habit to get into to visually clear any firearm each time it is picked up if it's been out of your sight for even a few seconds.

    Up here I can't carry and the only place I can shoot my handguns is at a recognized range. Handguns are carried to and from in a secured container with a trigger lock or other disabling device. I've made it my iron clad habit to check each firearm immediately before the lock goes on and immediately as it comes off. Taking a page from that shotgun instructor's habit I will recheck before installing the lock even if I just cleared it and then turned to put some ammo or other bits into the range bag. I do this partly to drill it into myself to do the job right.

    I've even made it a point to stop anyone that is talking to me or that I'm talking to and ask them to wait until I've cleared, locked and cased my guns before carrying on. No distractions allowed. I even do this at home despite the fact that I never load any live ammo so it could never become an issue. Snap caps or dummy loaded rounds with holes drilled into the cases to prove that they are dummies.

    And yeah, the beauty of the rules is that they do overlap so even in a stressful situation if one check goes awry such as in this case due to other things on a mind or a distraction at the last moment the honest practice of the rules will save the day.

    Mainsail, maybe you've been attentive and fastiduous so far and there has never been a hiccup. But most of us are human and suffer from human foibles so things can happen on occasion. I'm not defending that and certainly anyone worth their salt should beat themselves up about this and take some serious personal steps to help ensure it doesn't repeat.

    But that's the point. The rules overlap so that it makes it that much harder to end up with a bad situation.

    And FWIW I totally agree with you that there are no accidents where two people operating machinery are concerned. There is always neglect on one side or the other to cause an injury. The only true accidents are pure mechanical failure or where mother nature gets involved. Even then some accidents of mechanical failure can be attributed back to neglect in getting things inspected or serviced when it is known that they need it.

    After all is it an accident if the brakes fail when the owner/operator has known for some time that they are beyond wear points or have some other condition that required servicing? I'd say no, it comes back to owner/operator neglect.
     
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