Rule 4 in Context

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Kleanbore, Sep 16, 2021.

  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    One may hear the words "know your target and what is behind it" and think primarily in terms of safety at the range or on the farm. But it is at least as important when we need to to defend ourselves with a firearm quickly and under duress, no matter where we are.

    My first defensive gun use incident outside of the home occurred before I had had any defensive training whatsoever. I had entered the small grocery where we shopped most often.

    There were clear signs of an impending robbery inside--the first being a nervous driver with his engine running worrying about me and maintaining eye contact with someone in the store. Imprudently, I ignored that and entered anyway. A man at the checkout was buying one 1L drink and looking alternatively out at the diver and at the office counter where the cash is kept. Uh oh! I was between the man and the manager, and under the circumstances, I could not leave. I had to prepare to intervene, should it become necessary to save lives. I was carrying a pocket revolver.

    I moved quickly and discretely to make possible a clear shot. I immediately thought "backstop," and eyed the big freezer behind the man. I noted the position of everyone in the store who might move behind him and everyone who might move between us. I positioned myself accordingly.

    I never drew. My movement spooked the man. He dropped his bottle and his change and bolted for the door. They raced away. Neither I nor anyone else could remember anything by which to describe him.

    Would he have shot any of the staff in the store? Dunno. We do not employ deadly force to protect property. But there is a reason why robbery is not considered a property crime

    Some years later, there were scenarios on The Best Defense TV that showed what can go wrong in terms of collateral damage, and how best to avoid it. The thoughts never leave my mind.

    Now, if we are using a shotgun, we have to consider not only what is directly behind our target; we need to take also into account how the shot spreads out after it has passed the target.

    This sobering police training video points that out quite effectively.

    Y'all take care, hear?


     
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  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    One other point: it is obvious that warning shots fired in the air pose a real danger "down range", but it is also the case that shots fired into the ground for whatever reason can emerge and cause death and injury.
     
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  3. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Shots fired at the ground can ricochet at a smaller angle then that the gun is pointed out. They skim along the ground. That's why being behind a car with an open space underneath isn't really cover. Did a car/vehicle class with Dave Spaulding and we saw and practiced that.

    The video that Kleanbore referenced is a good one for the folks who posit that shotguns are the ultimate weapon for any circumstance and take little training. They take some practice.
     
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  4. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    In regard to the video how about a rifle of the AR variety?

    Seems simple and the example outdated.
     
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  5. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr Member

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    Kleanbore,Interesting story. I do wonder about something tho…. And now it’s not about your opposition to A revolver and you stating your carrying one in this situation…..
    It’s the “Good Samaritan issue”. Are you talking about intervening to save Your Life? Or are You talking about saving others lives? I ask to clarify as It’s a No No to intervene like that of a officer, where a civilian would step in- many Courses provide this and videos of this as Life risking to others and yourself. Just curious 70B5E6A1-E029-4AD0-9701-FF13172EA7C2.jpeg

    Once again- I’m simply asking for you to give clarification, not ruffle any feathers. Ps What kinda revolver? 5 shot?
     
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  6. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Member

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    In Georgia where I live it's legal to intervene to save another's life. Whether that is wise depends on the situation.
     
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    As jimbo said, if may be lawful, but it may not be wise.

    The law generally permits the use of deadly force to defend a third party--but only if the third party would be lawfully justified in the use of deadly force to defend himself. In many states, the defender's reasonable belief that such justification existed would suffice, but not in all. In some states, if the third party would not be justified to defend himself for some reason unbeknownst to the defender, the threat or use of deadly force in intervention would be a criminal act.

    But even if everything the defender knows would support justification, the probability of the defender's being injured or killed, tried and perhaps convicted, and sued is greater than zero. And it is a certainty that the legal bills will pile up quickly.

    It is best by far to stay out of it unless you know everything that has transpired between the parties, and probably, unless you know the 'good' guy well.

    So, why did I react as I did? I was between the robber and his targets, and there was no safe escape route. Had I tried to quietly exit the store, I would have had to go past the getaway driver, who was very much on edge. And I knew the staff of the small grocery very well. It was a judgement call.

    Good question. Thanks.

    *************
    Epilogue: the manager told the staff what happened. Some months later, a summer temp college student working there saw my firearm under my shirt tail, had a melt down, and became incoherent. Other members of the staff took here into the back and told her that I had likely saved lives in the store. But she quit her job.
     
  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    PS--it was a Smith and Wesson Model 642--five shot. I bought it because it would slip into a jeans pocket. I found the trigger, recoil, and sights terrible, and I liked the idea of a sixth round.

    So I bought a K6s, Much better, but heavy, and I have found it more comfortable in an OWB. I carry it when elbow trouble interferes with slight racking.
     
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  9. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr Member

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    [QUOTE="Kleanbore, post:

    It is best by far to stay out of it unless you now everything that has transpired

    Other members of the staff took here into the back and told her that I had likely saved lives in the store.


    Oh k
     
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  10. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr Member

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    As I stated simply in brief, Usually Not a good idea to intervene, to many variables for one person to perceive. A General “NoNo”. I felt it was good to point that out, From a Safety standpoint.
     
  11. Shanvanvocht

    Shanvanvocht Member

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    The same in South Carolina with the caveat that the individual on whose behalf you intervene must be themselves justified in using deadly force. Wisdom suggests restraint'
     
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  12. Bazoo

    Bazoo Member

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    I have a question. What if, you hadn't intervened and the bad guy killed the clerk and left. Upon being interviewed by the police you said you had a CC weapon but chose not to get involved because of the possible liability. Would you then be liable in some way for inaction?
     
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  13. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    No, you would not.

    The store owner who told the clerk he was not allowed to carry a firearm for self-defense at work would not be liable either.

    The security guard who didn't intervene even though he was hired to provide security also wouldn't be liable.

    Even if you were a police officer standing right there and you did nothing, you would still not be liable. You might have to spend a lot of time explaining to your boss why you saw fit to not intervene--you might even get fired, but you couldn't be sued or held criminally responsible for failing to act. https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again
     
  14. Bazoo

    Bazoo Member

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    I wasn't aware of that, or was and forgot. I was a ccdw instructor for the state of ky and while I am not licensed any longer I do still answer questions occasionally and try to encourage as many people into responsible carry as I can.
     
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  15. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    When I took the KY CCDW class in 1997 the way the law treats third party intervention was explained to me thusly: a person is justified in defending himself if the circumstances as he believes them to be makes him think he’s in danger of death or bodily harm. Third party defense is a higher standard in that the circumstances as they actually are must be such that the third party is in danger of death or bodily harm. If the law has changed since then I’m unaware of it.
     
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  16. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr Member

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    To many variables to know- And could be a very bad situation, Unless absolutely needed- No intervene on my behalf.
     
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  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Varies by jurisdiction. That's covered in one of Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense courses.

    Necessity is but one factor. All of the other required elements of self defense would also have to be met.

    That's also true in defending oneself. Branca covers that, also.
     
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  18. 1942bull
    • Contributing Member

    1942bull Contributing Member

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    I have a simple rule. If you do not have a clear shot do not take it. I also have a clear conviction that closing the distance to target as much as possible reduces the chance if error as it improves accuracy. Of course, closing the distance is fraught with danger. You have to do it with cover which might not be available. If. You have no cover all that is left is speed and surprise. It’s a crapshoot.

    The video is meaningless. It was staged. What happened. In real life rarely happens on the stage. Shotguns are less than idea in CQB. They are cumbersome to handle in close quarters, and depending on distance to target could result in the pattern not doing what it has to do. At 2 feet away —no issue, but at 10 feet the issues increase. For me it is simply about using a handgun and developing the accuracy to make each shot count. I train with a pistol because I do not have a rifle or shotgun with me ever.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  19. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Two thoughts about the video:

    1) It never occurred to anyone to put a sling on their shotgun?

    2) You could tell it was the 70’s because there was a digital watch in the jewelry store display (and because sidearm = 38 revolver.)
     
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  20. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I was referring specifically to KY law.
     
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  21. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr Member

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    Regardless- Unless My life is in danger or my family…. It would need to be extenuating circumstances of extreme nature for me to butt my nose into a hostile environment. I’m not a officer, or Leo- hence…. I do not act so.

    *This is my Opinion and doesn’t need to be yours or corrected- Yet id be glad to discuss it ,Politely.
     
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  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That is a very prudent point of view.

    Acting on those extenuating circumstances should require direct knowledge, and should not be based on appearances.
     
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  23. Lnf Crzr

    Lnf Crzr Member

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    Are we agreeing?
    To paraphrase-that’s what I said

    I brought all of this viewpoint up- Do to the fact… In Op, It never was

    - A important fact that should not have been overlooked.

    - Someone reading, and not having information could perceive it as totally just to intervene if one has a Carry permit. To Separate the two courses of thought is Prudent and Necessary.


     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  24. Bazoo

    Bazoo Member

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    The ky law still reads as such unless it changed within the last couple years.
     
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  25. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That, plus backstop will cover it all.
    That doesn't follow.
    That is precisely what the video is about.
     
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