bikemutt
Member
Sure, planning makes sense. As long as planners realize why Plan B came into our lexicon.
S & W Governor opinions
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Why would any plan, from A to Z, include you being stuck with only a .410 slug when the chips are down?
bikemutt
Member
Maybe it's the outcome the person never planned on. I think it's great to plan, I do that myself, but I've noticed that sometimes it doesn't go down according to plan(s). I suppose that could be the result of poor planning but sometimes stuff happens and you have to play the hand that's been dealt. Is a .410 slug better than nothing, who knows?
As an aside though, I agree that counting on a round with sub-optimal terminal ballistics is not a good idea. But if it's all ya got at the time, may as well go out fighting like heck with it.
As an aside though, I agree that counting on a round with sub-optimal terminal ballistics is not a good idea. But if it's all ya got at the time, may as well go out fighting like heck with it.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The "outcome" we're talking about is what you have with you when you need it. If you plan to have only a darning needle when the chips are down, that's what you'll have.
bikemutt
Member
Well, we are only talking about the Governor, it's just one arrow in the quiver for me personally. Certainly if it's a person's sole defensive weapon they should avail themselves of the best ordnance available and not plan on using what's left over from last years hunting season.
Using good quality, purpose-built handgun .410s, .45ACP or .45 Colt, or all three, in a Governor, within practical distances does fall on the chart of choices IMO. As with all defensive choices, practice is imperative. Keeping it simple is crucial.
Using good quality, purpose-built handgun .410s, .45ACP or .45 Colt, or all three, in a Governor, within practical distances does fall on the chart of choices IMO. As with all defensive choices, practice is imperative. Keeping it simple is crucial.
Stainz
Member
WardenWolf,
You said the Governor was 'heavy' and 'bulky'. Have you physically seen or touched one? The only 'lighter' and 'shorter' OAL S&W .45 Colt chambered revolver S&W ever made was the 2005 PC Shop 625-11 with it's 1.88" barrel, so short they had to put (.45 CLT) on it - in two lines. Still, with Eagle boot grips it weighed some 4+ oz less than the Governor's 29.6 oz. Both cylinders are the same OD. The 625-11 started at over a kilobuck - and went up since, as only 103 were reportedly made. I feel that, despite the extra freebore of the Governor's long cylinder, the 2.75" barrel should eek out a bit better accuracy and velocity from a .45 Colt load when compared with the 1.88" barrel on the 625-11 - the same goes when comparing the .45 ACP version of the PC snubbie - the 625-10, despite it's 2.1" barrel (Shorter cylinder!) - to the Governor.
To show how huge a Governor really is/isn't, here is mine - sporting admittedly huge .500 Magnum Hogue grips - with my 642 - an Airweight J-frame that weighs over half as much as the Governor:
I maintain that, as a viable nightstand protector in .45 ACP & .45 Colt, it is nearly ideal. Additionally, for midnite attacks by angry birds, it also holds .410 birdshot.
Stainz
PS I'll bet I am pretty much 'average' in my .410 usage, having bought several boxes of such the first two weeks - none in the last 21+ months - and I still have ~half of what I had bought! I maintain that most also see .410 usage as a fad - and the .45 ACP/Colt capability as primary.
You said the Governor was 'heavy' and 'bulky'. Have you physically seen or touched one? The only 'lighter' and 'shorter' OAL S&W .45 Colt chambered revolver S&W ever made was the 2005 PC Shop 625-11 with it's 1.88" barrel, so short they had to put (.45 CLT) on it - in two lines. Still, with Eagle boot grips it weighed some 4+ oz less than the Governor's 29.6 oz. Both cylinders are the same OD. The 625-11 started at over a kilobuck - and went up since, as only 103 were reportedly made. I feel that, despite the extra freebore of the Governor's long cylinder, the 2.75" barrel should eek out a bit better accuracy and velocity from a .45 Colt load when compared with the 1.88" barrel on the 625-11 - the same goes when comparing the .45 ACP version of the PC snubbie - the 625-10, despite it's 2.1" barrel (Shorter cylinder!) - to the Governor.
To show how huge a Governor really is/isn't, here is mine - sporting admittedly huge .500 Magnum Hogue grips - with my 642 - an Airweight J-frame that weighs over half as much as the Governor:
I maintain that, as a viable nightstand protector in .45 ACP & .45 Colt, it is nearly ideal. Additionally, for midnite attacks by angry birds, it also holds .410 birdshot.
Stainz
PS I'll bet I am pretty much 'average' in my .410 usage, having bought several boxes of such the first two weeks - none in the last 21+ months - and I still have ~half of what I had bought! I maintain that most also see .410 usage as a fad - and the .45 ACP/Colt capability as primary.
WardenWolf
member
Stainz, you're still dealing with a gun that's heavier than it would need to be to shoot .45 Colt, and sacrifices barrel length to stay in that same overall length.
Stainz
Member
WardenWolf,
I believe you are saying that to chamber .45 Colts and 'clipped .45 ACP's, an N-frame OAL .45 Colt-ish cylinder in a shorter frame opening would be all that was needed. This has been done, albeit to a shorter cylinder, in the 325NG in .45 ACP, as I mentioned in my first post. If you'll recall the 325NG and Governor shared many construction attributes, Al/Sc frame, SS barrel & cylinder, Tritium Night Sight front/fixed rear sight, etc. Again - the OAL difference is 7/8" and the weight difference is 1.8 oz (It would be less with a 325NG cylindered for .45 Colt!). "Heavier" than it needs to be? By what, <6%?The short barrel is by design.
Of course demand for a .45 ACP 325NG wouldn't support a .45 Colt variant, that's for sure. The whole NG line fizzled, anyway. Add the 2.5" .410 capability and you can ride the Taurus Judge's coat tails - and get some dyed-in-the-wool S&W-types, me included, 'out of the closet' - and buy a Governor. Try to handle one before you totally write it off - or not. You are entitled to your opinion, whether based on facts, your physical inspection, etc, or not.
Stainz
I believe you are saying that to chamber .45 Colts and 'clipped .45 ACP's, an N-frame OAL .45 Colt-ish cylinder in a shorter frame opening would be all that was needed. This has been done, albeit to a shorter cylinder, in the 325NG in .45 ACP, as I mentioned in my first post. If you'll recall the 325NG and Governor shared many construction attributes, Al/Sc frame, SS barrel & cylinder, Tritium Night Sight front/fixed rear sight, etc. Again - the OAL difference is 7/8" and the weight difference is 1.8 oz (It would be less with a 325NG cylindered for .45 Colt!). "Heavier" than it needs to be? By what, <6%?The short barrel is by design.
Of course demand for a .45 ACP 325NG wouldn't support a .45 Colt variant, that's for sure. The whole NG line fizzled, anyway. Add the 2.5" .410 capability and you can ride the Taurus Judge's coat tails - and get some dyed-in-the-wool S&W-types, me included, 'out of the closet' - and buy a Governor. Try to handle one before you totally write it off - or not. You are entitled to your opinion, whether based on facts, your physical inspection, etc, or not.
Stainz
Vern Humphrey
Member
When a person buys a .25 ACP pistol for self-defense, that person plans to use that gun for self-defense. When a person buys a .410 revolver for self defense, that person plans to use that gun for self-defense. In each case, purchasing the weapon is an act in furtherance of the plan.
Now, if a person plans to have a 12 gauge pump at home for home defense, and to carry a .357 or .45 ACP, that person has planned to use those guns.
JFrame
Member
No doubt pretty much everyone on this thread has his mind made up on the validity of the Governor (or the lack thereof). But for those who are just seeking more information, I wanted to post some additional comparative data.
Here is a comparative shot of the Governor, a Detonics Mk VI "chopped" .45, and a S&W Model 65 .357 (3" bbl), to give some perspective of dimensions:
According to my postal scale, following are the respective weights:
Governor -- 1 lb., 13.7 oz.
Detonics Mk VI -- 1 lb., 13.9 oz.
Model 65 -- 2 lb., 2.4 oz.
Of course, this is not intended to be a "fair" weight comparison, because the two latter guns are stainless steel, and the Gov is comprised of exotic metals. I just wanted to give prospective info-gatherers some additional baseline in drawing conclusions.
.
Here is a comparative shot of the Governor, a Detonics Mk VI "chopped" .45, and a S&W Model 65 .357 (3" bbl), to give some perspective of dimensions:
According to my postal scale, following are the respective weights:
Governor -- 1 lb., 13.7 oz.
Detonics Mk VI -- 1 lb., 13.9 oz.
Model 65 -- 2 lb., 2.4 oz.
Of course, this is not intended to be a "fair" weight comparison, because the two latter guns are stainless steel, and the Gov is comprised of exotic metals. I just wanted to give prospective info-gatherers some additional baseline in drawing conclusions.
.
bikemutt
Member
Huh?
It's clear to me you don't believe the Gov is a good choice for SD, and I respect your opinion. I believe otherwise, within the constraints I've already outlined.
We can agree to disagree on this one.
JFrame
Member
I get what you're saying -- but I have come to view the Governor as "ungainly" -- kind of like Rick Deckard's gun in "Blade Runner," with a weird charm all its own...
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Zaydok Allen
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
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- 13,274
Lame velocity with the .410's. Lame accuracy with the .45's. If you really do want a .410 revolver though, definately go with the Smith over a Taurus.
That being said, I'm not going to stand in line to get shot with one. I'm sure it would still deter an attacker.
That being said, I'm not going to stand in line to get shot with one. I'm sure it would still deter an attacker.
The problem we found was that the moon clips supplied with the Governor are a bit flimsy and did go out of round after a few firings and manipulations. Might have been a bad batch...not sure.
The .410's we shot were all at longer range and accuracy was not good. Closer range will be better obviously, but I just don't see the need when 45 ACP or 45 Colt would be the better defensive options.
Also, the Governor we shot was new right out of the box....safety checked and oiled...
Hope that helps to clarify...
The .410's we shot were all at longer range and accuracy was not good. Closer range will be better obviously, but I just don't see the need when 45 ACP or 45 Colt would be the better defensive options.
Also, the Governor we shot was new right out of the box....safety checked and oiled...
Hope that helps to clarify...
tinygnat219
Member
This is in response to J-Frame's post:
Like I said in the beginning, I think your post was well reasoned and not presumptuous. Thanks!
Exactly, which is what I enjoy about the tone of your post. I think overall, it hits the nail on the head.
I have to agree here. It balances quite nicely and makes the .410 shotshells really feel like nothing much at all in terms of felt recoil.
Expect the Anti-Moon clip crowd to come out and say that they don't work, bend easily, blah blah. I figured if they worked in combat conditions for WWI and WWII, they're good enough for me. Still, I'd look into a speedloader for .45 Colt. The Rimmed cartridges really do wonders and they do work.
I'm still not convinced I'd use anything other than #6 shot in this for outdoor snake use, but I haven't really patterned the .410 Shot loads either.
I've had problems with extracting loads meant for shotguns and not the loads designed for the Governor / Judge.
Like I said in the beginning, I think your post was well reasoned and not presumptuous. Thanks!
Stainz
Member
Paladin7,
The six slot moonclips S&W sources, like the ones Brownells, etc, source, came from Ranch Products. They are the same ones used by 25's and 625's. I don't know if they still include the two-slot 'one third' moonclips as mine, bought new 6/11, included. The thickness of the 'clips affects the headspace, ie, they are all a given thickness. The cartridges are meant to be turned or twisted as they are pushed into the slots. Removal is easiest with a 'demooning tool', and I prefer the nutdriver-style available from Brownell's, etc, for <$18. It will hold six empties in it's tube, permitting faster reloads - just have a bag/box to dump the empties in. I've found that Remington & Starline brass seems to load more easily than other brands. I reload, so I ordered 1,000 Starline .45 ACPs years ago (~$130 delivered then - not much more now - just a long wait for stock!). Revolver brass doesn't get scratched up by extractor/ejectors, so it stays nicer longer. As I said, I keep ~240 moonclips loaded, mostly ball ammo but some with 255gr LSWC as a revolver doesn't care what shape your bullets take. The last Ranch Products moonclips - blued steel - I bought were $35/100 - they are probably a bit more now. Nice folks.
I'll grant you, the Governor won't win a beauty contest. The trigger is pretty stout - apparently, #209 shotgun primers take more strike energy than LP CF primers. One range denizen summed it this way, after trying my example's stock trigger; "I didn't know S&W made a Sigma Revolver!". While it's not a target gun, it's accuracy is acceptable, as my sub 3" groups at 12yd were from a standing two hand hold - ie, not rested on/against anything. It's Tritium Night Site does not win points with me - my mature eyes find it, like my 60 Pro and 632 Pro similar sights, requires complete darkness to be seen, making it difficult to see your target. I prefer the f.o. 'HiViz' sights.
Stainz
The six slot moonclips S&W sources, like the ones Brownells, etc, source, came from Ranch Products. They are the same ones used by 25's and 625's. I don't know if they still include the two-slot 'one third' moonclips as mine, bought new 6/11, included. The thickness of the 'clips affects the headspace, ie, they are all a given thickness. The cartridges are meant to be turned or twisted as they are pushed into the slots. Removal is easiest with a 'demooning tool', and I prefer the nutdriver-style available from Brownell's, etc, for <$18. It will hold six empties in it's tube, permitting faster reloads - just have a bag/box to dump the empties in. I've found that Remington & Starline brass seems to load more easily than other brands. I reload, so I ordered 1,000 Starline .45 ACPs years ago (~$130 delivered then - not much more now - just a long wait for stock!). Revolver brass doesn't get scratched up by extractor/ejectors, so it stays nicer longer. As I said, I keep ~240 moonclips loaded, mostly ball ammo but some with 255gr LSWC as a revolver doesn't care what shape your bullets take. The last Ranch Products moonclips - blued steel - I bought were $35/100 - they are probably a bit more now. Nice folks.
I'll grant you, the Governor won't win a beauty contest. The trigger is pretty stout - apparently, #209 shotgun primers take more strike energy than LP CF primers. One range denizen summed it this way, after trying my example's stock trigger; "I didn't know S&W made a Sigma Revolver!". While it's not a target gun, it's accuracy is acceptable, as my sub 3" groups at 12yd were from a standing two hand hold - ie, not rested on/against anything. It's Tritium Night Site does not win points with me - my mature eyes find it, like my 60 Pro and 632 Pro similar sights, requires complete darkness to be seen, making it difficult to see your target. I prefer the f.o. 'HiViz' sights.
Stainz
tinygnat219
Member
One other thing to consider for those that are proponents of the 325 NG series of .45 ACP revolvers. They are nice, they are functional, but the Governor is made from the same material is 250-300 less AND can take .45 Colt. Just something to remember.
JFrame
Member
Tinygnat219 -- thanks back to you for your comments and suggestions!
That's a good idea about speedloaders for the .45 Colt. It provides yet another option -- and the Gov seems to be all about options.
I agree that as a snake gun, I'd use smaller shot.
Good to know...!
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Stainz,
Agree with you and like your approach to the moonclips...
If I was relying on the Governor for serious social work, I would go 45ACP with good brass that works well with the moonclips of choice and moonclips that are true/flat, or 45 Colt with a speed loader (assuming they make them in 45 Colt)....
Personally, I believe there are way better options for serious work than these revolvers...
Agree with you and like your approach to the moonclips...
If I was relying on the Governor for serious social work, I would go 45ACP with good brass that works well with the moonclips of choice and moonclips that are true/flat, or 45 Colt with a speed loader (assuming they make them in 45 Colt)....
Personally, I believe there are way better options for serious work than these revolvers...
Dain Bramage
Member
I don't know about slugs, but the buckshot data cited by JFrame seems to have it all over .45 Colt. The values are from an American Rifleman story on the Governor, and should be an apples to apples comparison. Don't forget, the immense popularity of these guns has the manufacturers loading .410 for pistol-length barrels.
Stainz
Member
The HKS #25-5 works great with the .45 Colts and a 625MG in .45 Colt as well as the Governor. Stay away from the HKS #25 - it's rim securing tines fit the thick rimmed .45 Auto Rims. I keep two 25-5's loaded with Speer 250gr GDJHPs in my desk for a MG or Governor - whichever one I grab first.
Stainz
Stainz
Gov, 310 NG, Snakecharmer, etc.....
I have a Gov. and like it -use it at times as a traveling snake and varmit gun loaded with shot shells and a couple of 45 ACP for when we go deer hunting, fishing or whatever out in the wilds of LA. (Lower Alabama).I have a nice belt holster that works well from S&W. Fun gun.
I also have a 10mm NG which is an "even better "gun than the Gov IMHO. It is light , easy to shoot, very accurate and versatile shooting all manner of 10mm loads and also all sorts of 40 S&W loads,PLUS it shoots the 40 cal pistol shot shells which are the most effective of all the shot shells made by CCI and rival the 410 in effectiveness-at leastas far as I can tell. Have not shot any humans with it yet. There is always the 2 terrible 10's lurking in the moons.
I just bought a small truckload of those clips from Brownells on sale-now I need to fill them up for my two tens- the 6 1/4" and the 310NG. These are awesome revolvers. At least I like them and shoot them very well.
I had a Snake charmer in 45/410 and bought a 10mm barrel for it-I used the 40 cal shot loads in that gun -killed a black widow spider with it( don't laugh)- also, the lighter 10mm or 40 cal loads were fun and good in accuracy and power as well. I wanted more ammo in my gun so traded it off after I got the Gov.
There are as many solutions to these questions as there are people. Enjoy your guns. Have fun and be safe!
PS: StarFirearms.com makes really slick speedloaders for the 410 shells for the Gov as well as 45 Colt speedloaders and range blocks. Nice stuff.
I have a Gov. and like it -use it at times as a traveling snake and varmit gun loaded with shot shells and a couple of 45 ACP for when we go deer hunting, fishing or whatever out in the wilds of LA. (Lower Alabama).I have a nice belt holster that works well from S&W. Fun gun.
I also have a 10mm NG which is an "even better "gun than the Gov IMHO. It is light , easy to shoot, very accurate and versatile shooting all manner of 10mm loads and also all sorts of 40 S&W loads,PLUS it shoots the 40 cal pistol shot shells which are the most effective of all the shot shells made by CCI and rival the 410 in effectiveness-at leastas far as I can tell. Have not shot any humans with it yet. There is always the 2 terrible 10's lurking in the moons.
I just bought a small truckload of those clips from Brownells on sale-now I need to fill them up for my two tens- the 6 1/4" and the 310NG. These are awesome revolvers. At least I like them and shoot them very well.
I had a Snake charmer in 45/410 and bought a 10mm barrel for it-I used the 40 cal shot loads in that gun -killed a black widow spider with it( don't laugh)- also, the lighter 10mm or 40 cal loads were fun and good in accuracy and power as well. I wanted more ammo in my gun so traded it off after I got the Gov.
There are as many solutions to these questions as there are people. Enjoy your guns. Have fun and be safe!
PS: StarFirearms.com makes really slick speedloaders for the 410 shells for the Gov as well as 45 Colt speedloaders and range blocks. Nice stuff.
Stainz
Member
HiVel1,
Is that '5starfirearms.com', the folks who make the great milled Aluminum loading block and speedloaders for the x8 627's? They are great - used one out at the FOP range today while awaiting the bad weather today.
Stainz
Is that '5starfirearms.com', the folks who make the great milled Aluminum loading block and speedloaders for the x8 627's? They are great - used one out at the FOP range today while awaiting the bad weather today.
Stainz
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