S&W J Frame vs Glock 42?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by fxstchewy, Jan 4, 2015.

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  1. verdun59

    verdun59 Member

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    And then there are the old dudes like me who are finding it harder and more painful to rack some of these small autos due to arthur. Hence the move to small revolvers, in my case a LCR. Is it the same as my CZ75B or my XD9....no, but it's easier for me to conceal and certainly better than nothing.
     
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posted by verdun59:
    I'll see your arthritis and raise you tendonitis too.

    Repeated slide racking during a two day training session can certainly leave me hurting for a while.

    But problems with a the DA revolver trigger pull make it very difficult for me to achieve combat accuracy while firing quickly enough.

    Not only that, but a practice session with a lightweight .38 is much more demanding in terms of recoil than my XD-S 9MM 4.0.

    I don't have any problem concealing the slim XD-S under a shirt tail or jacket, OWB.

    Better than nothing? You can say that again.

    In this season, I've taken to adding a 642 in a weak-hand-side vest pocket (in a pocket holster). Easily accessible when I'm strapped into the driver's seat at an ATM, and quicker to get into action than a semi-auto with a stove-pipe.

    My wife recently acquired a 3 inch SP101 and had the hammer bobbed and a CT grip added. The weight and longer barrel make shooting easier. Some people are not as familiar with quickly working a semi-auto a those of us who have been using them for more than five decades.
     
  3. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    Thats just it, you never know the answer, until its over.

    If youre very lucky, one round will suffice, although I seriously doubt, you would really ever know, as rounds two, three, four, etc, would already be on the way, before the effects of one, were ever known.

    The only real answer is, you shoot until they are down or you are empty. What else is there? All you can hope for is, you still have rounds left, if they fail to go down on what you had planned or allotted (a major no no the way I see it), and/or, there are other targets you have yet to deal with.

    I think this brings up something that many probably have not even considered, as many dont really practice "realistically", and base their skills, on what they do on a static range, very often, at either bulls eye targets, or silhouettes, with scoring rings, that have nothing to do with reality.

    Reality is, youre going to be moving (well, you should be anyway), and your opponent(s) are also going to be moving, all while youre trying to hit fleeting targets from varying angles, as you go.

    Practicing on non descript targets facing "head on", that dont require you to think as to where the "track" to the point that youre "really" trying to hit is, do you no good. You need to know where the important things are, and how youre going to hit them, from any angle you encounter, as youre shooting.

    One of the few things of value to come from that idiot box, is practicing just this. If you take the time to learn anatomy, and understand what it is you are trying/need to hit, your TV offers good practice at this, with targets more mimicking reality.

    Again, with any of this, the only correct response, is to shoot until the threat is down. As much as the plan in your head says otherwise, it just is what it is, and you have no choice, but to continue to respond, until the desired result is obtained.

    The DA trigger pull on many revolvers is close to what the RSA weight is, on a lot of autos. If you cant work the slide, how well are you going to do "repetitively", with a DA trigger of similar weight? You only have to work the slide once, and thats not going to be under stress, in most cases.

    I also agree that the lightweight .38 snubbies, as well as their all steel .357mag versions, are very demanding to practice with, especially if youre practicing with loads similar to what you carry in them. Brutal is a very apt description. Since we really do need to continually practice, how much practice are you "really" getting in?
     
  4. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Member

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    Realistic practice with the Glock 42 should include malfunction drills. When your moving and fending off an attacker with one hand and firing with the other and you get a fte . Something that seems to happen a lot to the 42 and other small autos when you have a less than ideal grip.
     
  5. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    I havent found that to be the case. How often does your 42 act up?

    I have two, with a couple of thousand rounds or so through them combined, and have yet to have any issues not related to my reloads, which were just adjustment pains bumping the load up for the Glocks.

    While you should always practice malfunction drills with all of them, including revolvers (they arent as flawless as some will have you believe), you have to let proximity and circumstance, determine what you do and when you do it. Sometimes the appropriate drill, isnt to fiddle with the gun.
     
  6. wlkjr

    wlkjr Member

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    This makes it easier to rack the slide on a Glock
    http://www.ndzperformance.com/category-s/2503.htm
     
  7. heyjoe

    heyjoe Member

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    under what self defense scenarios will you be trying to hit fleeting targets. once they are fleeting i hope they keep fleeting. If i have time to move then ill be moving away.
     
  8. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Fleeting is a different word than fleeing. ;)

    fleet·ing
    ˈflēdiNG/
    adjective
    lasting for a very short time.

    He is saying that your threat/attacker isn't going to stand there for 5 seconds while you try to land hits. Your threat/attacker is most likely going to be moving, might be using cover, and any good opportunities at hits (to stop the attack) may be short lived, aka, fleeting

    (admittedly small) example

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8121799&postcount=1

    "# in which the bad guy was moving while being shot at – 63 (100%)"
     
  9. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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  10. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    I was forced to fight with either of those guns- and began gun in hand- I'd take the wheelgun over the G42. Personally I don't have much confidence in the .380. On paper it's relatively close to the .38 but IMOHO the strength of the revolver is the ability to run LSWC ammo reliably. At lower velocities the 158gr LSWC has historically been very effective in combat. I'm not sure that there is a .380 load with a good track record. Take this just for what it is, my opinion, but I'd take 5 x 158gr +P LSWC over 10 of whatever from a .380 auto.
     
  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Posed by Nom de Forum:
    Yet in the article cited in Post #100, Dr. Gary Roberts includes no .380 ACP loads on his recommended list.

    That should be patently obvious.

    That seems to be in question. By no means does everyone agree with that.

    I do not contend that a .380 might not serve well, but many, many people are dubious about it.

    Such as 3 to 5 yards? That's really the case for any defensive handgun, isn't it.

    Posted by Nom de Forum:
    Heavier, yes, but it is not really very much bigger at all. The 4.0 is six tenths of an inch longer than a 642, and that does not impair its concealability; the regular XD-S is the essentially the same length as the 642, but I prefer the extra length and weight of the 4.0.

    The XD-S 4.0 is one tenth of an inch less high than a 642, and almost two thirds of an inch thinner.

    The G42 is a little shorter, but I do not find a small difference in length to be a limiting factor. The difference in thickness is less than a tenth of an inch, and the difference in height, about one fourth of an inch. That's about 7% in both dimensions.

    I carry mine outside the waistband in a Crossbreed holster.

    To me that is an advantage. I can practice with it all the time. Shooting a lightweight firearm extensively is not only painful, it can lead to permanent nerve and joint injury. And, of course, the extra wight and its distribution help with rapid fire.

    The holster and a good belt distribute and support the weight very well. I carry the firearm all day, and I am not aware of its presence.

    The lighter 642 in my vest pocket is unsupported, and it does feel heavy.

    Yep.
     
  12. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Perhaps because the 158gr LSWC it is a non-expanding, deep penetrating, .357 diameter bullet with a flat nose sorta like the non-expanding, deep penetrating, .355 diameter bullets with a flat nose that are available in .380 ammunition? It sure isn't because the 158gr LSWC cuts nice round holes in humans like it does in paper. That myth is unfortunately still being repeated as reality. What is the velocity of a 158gr LSWC out of a .38 and .357 J-frame? What is the velocity of a 95gr/100gr LFN out of .380? More importantly do they all have sufficient penetration to completely pass through a human body at near contact range? IIRC they all do.
     
  13. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Semi auto .380's do not have bullet options that match up to a 158gr LSWC-HP.

    'The FBI Load' earned its reputation on the street, did it not?

    I can't say that I have ever heard of a .380 round earning any kind of noteworthy cred. Am I missing something?
     
  14. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    How about listing the overall dimensions and empty weight?

    S&W MOdel 60 -15 .357 Mag 3" Bbl. W&E adj. Rear sight
    all stainless steel
    empty weight: 24.5 oz
    Overall Length: 7.5"
    Overall Height: 4.5" guessing putting it beside my
    Range Officer Compact
    Width: 1.4?" <--- Cylinder diameter


    comparing a .380 miicro compact to the above is unfair
    to both guns.

    I'd take my 60 for a walk about in the woods not a G42

    R-
     
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Another Input

    Gary Roberts compared J-Frame .38 revolvers with the .380 ACP for LEO backup (very close range, "many times involving contact shots") usage in late 2012.

    Pertinent excerpts:





    http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp
     
  16. heyjoe

    heyjoe Member

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    [QUOTEFleeting is a different word than fleeing.

    fleet·ing
    ˈflēdiNG/
    adjective
    lasting for a very short time.

    He is saying that your threat/attacker isn't going to stand there for 5 seconds while you try to land hits. Your threat/attacker is most likely going to be moving, might be using cover, and any good opportunities at hits (to stop the attack) may be short lived, aka, fleeting

    (admittedly small) example

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....99&postcount=1

    "# in which the bad guy was moving while being shot at – 63 (100%)"][/QUOTE]

    i know what fleeting means. The vast majority of attacks wont involve a bad guy moving for cover and wont involve much moving at all except to approach you and then to exit the area after they get what they want. If you start shooting the bad guy will either be shooting back at you right where he is or will be fleetingly fleeing. The exception might be a home invasion but the weapons you use to defend yourself can be much larger and much higher capacity then most people would be willing to carry around with them all day concealed.
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    ^^^^

    Try this link.
     
  18. AK103K

    AK103K member

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    Is that the scenario you have going on in your mind?

    I take it you didnt bother to read Warp's link too?

    The one that stated this.....

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....99&postcount=1

    "# in which the bad guy was moving while being shot at – 63 (100%)"

    Those who dont move will likely be DRT. Even those who do, at close range, stand a good chance of being hit. Those who are comfortable and practiced at shooting while moving, and can quickly do both, stand the best chance at coming out on the good side of things.

    Go get yourself a couple of airsoft guns and a couple of buddies, and see who stands still while the other guy is trying to shoot them. Also see who gets hit. ;)
     
  19. herkyguy

    herkyguy Member

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    Just buy both.

    I carry an LCR IWB on some days and a G42 IWB on others. Honestly, I prefer the LCR to just about every other carry gun I have (XDs 4.0" 9mm, LCR, G42, and P238), but the slim profile of the G42 makes it the easiest to conceal.

    It's a tossup. Depends on the day and how I'm dressed.
     
  20. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I think you are terribly mistaken. Decades of real world incidents say movement of one or both parties is almost a guarantee.

    Do you really think the threat is going to make themselves a stationary target out in the open?

    Do YOU plan to make yourself a stationary target out in the open? Remember that you probably won't be attacked when you are already 'safely' behind cover.
     
  21. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Yes you are. I have not said any .380 loading is a “match up to a 158gr LSWC-HP. What I am saying is that certain .380 loadings are close enough in terminal ballistic performance when both are used in small pistols that the difference is not significant. You are right about .380 “noteworthy cred” but probably because of more .38 revolver usage and the comparison being made to low powered .380 loadings. As the link to Dr. Robert’s comment provided by Kleenbore mentions neither can be relied upon in a short barreled guns for expansion to aid incapacitation. That leaves us back with punching the deep enough holes that both calibers are capable of and the J-frames have a .002” in diameter advantage. Not much of an advantage.

    This so reminds me of the comments over decades criticizing the 9mm compared to the .45 and the 5.56 compared to the 7.62. Things change. The understanding of terminal ballistics and the terminal ballistic performance of smaller calibers has greatly improved. Non-expanding bullets at best speed out of a .380 have sufficient penetration. Most people have a better chance of firing more bullets on target with a .380 semi than a .38/.357 J-frame. Two hits with a G42 are more effective than one hit from a J-frame. You are more likely to make two hits with the G42 than a J-frame in the two scenarios of limited time available to fire preventing emptying either pistol and sufficient time available to empty either pistol.
     
  22. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  23. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    HD/SD load for my Model 60 3" Bbl .357 Mag is
    .38 Special +P Gold Dot 125 gr. JHPs @ 1,100 FPS w/2" Bbl.

    I shoot it once a month with .38 SPecial 130 gr. FMJ &
    a cylinder or two of .357 mag.

    My carry is a CCO 1911 variant in .45 ACP I shoot twice a
    month

    I have a friend with 3 .380s incl. a 42. I don't see the attraction

    Randall
     
  24. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Try wearing the 1911 on your ankle and your 3" barreled M60 in you pants pocket. You may discover the attractive qualities of the G42.
     
  25. heyjoe

    heyjoe Member

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    i read the link. there arent too many ccw's involved in running gun battles around here at least, maybe where you are its different. Armed robbery and occasional home break ins are the norm. im trying very hard to fathom what scenarios you have in your mind that involve bad guys running for cover and ccw's obtaining cover and then exchanging gun fire. of course both are going to be moving but not to run to cover to engage in a gun battle and not to be running while shooting at someone else. if you do that here you are in serious risk of hitting someone not involved. that 100% statistic states movement but not what type of movement. if someone is attempting to leave im not firing at them.
     
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