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S&W Mdl 27 Classic

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Mr. Mosin, May 31, 2020.

  1. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    Sorry for double post.

    Would different grain wieghts effect the amount of flame cutting differently, or does a 125 grn flame cut the same as a 158 grn ? I recall something about the old Mdl 19's forcing cone cracking with extensive use of the high velocity 125 grn .357 Magnums back in the day, but being relatively fine with 158 grn projectiles. Something to that effect. My memory of it is shoddy.
     
  2. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    The gas/pressure vented upwards has no where to go, so it erodes the top strap until it gets to the point of being able to escape freely ?
     
  3. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    The lighter bullets are loaded hotter. They therefore move faster and impact the forcing cone more violently. Imperfect alignment is normal, but the imperfection is ever so slight, and even with a perfect alignment there is the smack of bullets impacting the leading edge of the rifling and therefore there is still a somewhat violent whack with every round fired. The cracking issues have been one of two issues. The one you referenced is a forcing cone cracking on the bottom edge due to it being thinned to allow for the end of the cylinder protrusion to pass. The cracked frame issues I don’t fully understand, but are limited to J frames of a certain variety.
     
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  4. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    Essentially, yes.
     
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  5. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    So the new 27's are perfectly fine, perfectly safe; I just was worrying over some idiot making something out to be something that it actually wasn't due to his surprising ignorance ?
     
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  6. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    You might have misunderstood. What I wrote was that the Model 27 Classic is a model that appeals by aesthetics. The 627 is the "practical" alternative. It's stainless finish is more durable than bluing. It has eight chambers instead of the six that only appeals to "tradition," it's cylinder is cut for moon-clips... whereas the features unique to the Model 27 Classic are really only justified by the aesthetics. I'm not comparing it to older S&W.

    The problem with the sight screw hole in the top strap is it creates a divot that focuses the gas reflected off the top strap to form a splotch on the side of the cylinder. I very much doubt it just wipes off a blued cylinder. I'm sure it can be polished out of a stainless cylinder. The reality is that blued finishes are delicate and show wear easily. That's why there's stainless steel, black oxides, cerakote and so on. But blued finishes are traditional and for many people they are more aesthetically pleasing, especially if the gun was highly polished before it was blued.

    I have not compared new "Classic" series S&W with old S&W side-by-side, but people who have done so have reported that the bluing on the Classics leaves nothing to be desired. It may not rival a royal-blue Colt Python or a custom job, but it's been reported to match what the factory did in the past on production guns. The Model 27 Classic does not compare to a Registered Magnum -- but if you're looking for a gun as close as you can get at 1/10th the price, the Classic is your answer. Again, I've got nothing against new S&W. It's all I own. I was just pointing out that the appeal of the 27 Classic is all about the aesthetics -- making it look like the old revolvers, and look pretty.
     
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  7. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    Aye. I personally want one of the Mdl 19 Classic's. I was just curious if the issue effected *all* the Classic's, all the N-frames, or just the Mdl 27 Classic.
     
  8. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    FWIW, I've owned various S&W revolvers, most purchased new, since the '60s. All develop "flame cutting"/etching over the B/C gap and carbon burns on the front of the cylinder, especially the .357, .41, and .44 Magnums. This never affected operation of my revolvers in any way that I could detect. That the screw for a scope mount might be over the B/C gap would not concern me at all. Some of this YouTube stuff, I don't know....
     
  9. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    What do you mean the lighter bullets are loaded hotter? Are you saying they are loaded to higher chamber pressure than the heavy bullets?

    FYI, people report cracked forcing cones even with a steady diet of 158 grain bullets.


    Not according to these links:
    https://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=59338

    https://www.ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/365813-death-s-w-625-10-a.html
     
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  10. silvermane_1

    silvermane_1 Member

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    ^If you happen to chance finding a S&W M-27 Classic at a good price/deal, purchase.;)
     
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  11. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    Don't worry. I find a S&W flagship revolver made old school, I'm buying it.
     
  12. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    It's always been a fault of mine to give a bit much benefit of doubt.

    Some of the YouTube personalities might not always be right certainly. The majority of them have a pretty hard "Tacticool" lean in their knowledge base. Wheel guns are getting to be a bit of a lost art. I wouldn't call them idiots, they're just discussing something outside their wheelhouse. It's like talking light sabers with Han Solo.

    I'm glad they're getting outside their comfort zone and giving exposure to other types of weapons. I'm also not trying to be too hard on them for not being Mas Ayoob or Elmer Keith either. Of the bigger gun related YouTube personalities I think Hickock45 is probably one of the better ones when revolvers are the topic du jour.
     
  13. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    This particular individual is *supposedly* a revolver expert. I question that highly. Just because you have a decent collection of revolvers doesn't make you an expert, no different than me having all sorts of tacticool gear makes me an operator.

    *FYI I hate tacticool video reviews. You ain't walking around day to day in full battle rattle, you don't have gloves on. I wanna see if the guns recoils excessively, if the stock grips cause hot spots and blisters, if the sights are acceptable. I don't need your tacticool junk. You wanna be tacticool ? Join the military.
     
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  14. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    David Atkinson, The Yankee Marshall, is knowledgable about revolvers and he is fundamentally a sound reasoner. He acts foolishly, has a mouth that is foul without being particularly creative, is crude, and has an irritating habit of provoking controversy simply to promote himself. Let me be clear, I am not a fan. On the other hand, this isn't justification to dismiss everything he says. He was right-on when he nailed Greg Kinman for being an NRA-ass kisser and a cheap shill. He was also right when he called out the broader gun community for acquiescing in the vilification of mental illness and the mentally ill as a convenient redirection of hostility toward gun owners. The mentally ill are not our scapegoats. He has also been right about minor technical quibbles like the fact that holsters need not and sometimes should not fully cover the trigger guard, but should cover to the backside of the trigger itself.

    I don't know what he's said about the sight screw holes in the top strap causing the cylinder to be marked, but I have noticed that issue myself. The solution is actually very simple -- the screws should be fit flush on their bottom. The reason S&W doesn't do this is because it would either require hand-fitting them, or more precision about where the thread cutter starts to thread the hole. They would need to precision-index the tap every time, and use precision-length screws. Personally, I think they should redesign their topstraps and rear sights to better accommodate red dot sights. Their current topstrap/rear-sight design comes from the early 1990's if I'm not mistaken. In the last 30 years, red dot sights have become very significant, and their design could be made to accommodate them better, specifically to allow for lower mounting and therefore less offset. I personally don't care about backup iron sights, but a lot of people want them and their current design doesn't make it practical at all. Not surprisingly, most of the red dot sights out there are designed for slide mount or rails and not revolvers. At least half of that problem is the revolver's fault. The other half can be addressed by AOBC's electro-optics division, Crimson Trace (S&W's sister company).

    To reiterate, the holes in the top strap do contribute to the permanent damage of the blued finish on the revolver cylinder. The gas and solid debris that hits the top strap where all revolvers are flame-cut is further directed parallel along the bottom surface of the top strap and the top surface of the cylinder -- until they hit the screw hole(s). The screw holes deflect the gas and debris downward where they hit the cylinder at a perpendicular angle. Is it a big deal? No. Does it affect the integrity of the cylinder? No. Is it noticeable? Yes. I would say it is slightly less noticeable than a screwed up turn line. There are plenty of people that fuss about anything but the thinnest turn lines. I do not worry about any of this myself. I just shoot stainless guns, problem solved.
     
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  15. DR505

    DR505 Member

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    The Model 27 is the descendent of the original "Registered Magnum" that appeared in 1935. The Python came out in 1955, twenty years after what would eventually be called the Model 27. So no, the 27 is not a challenger (whatever that means) to the Python.

    The 27 is built on the N frame, which is much bigger than the 19's K frame. If you look at the charge holes of each, assuming 6 shot cylinders, you will see just how much bigger the 27 is. It weighs much more, but is more pleasant, for me anyway, when shooting full house .357 magnum ammo.
     
  16. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    The Model 27 is S&W's N-frame chambered in 357 Magnum. This is fundamentally the original and world's first 357 Magnum. As early as 1930, S&W produced N frames chambered for high-pressure .38 Specials that became known as .38/44. The "Registered Magnum," introduced in 1935 was an extension of that concept that was accompanied by the introduction of the 357 Magnum cartridge, which is just 3.7mm longer. Factory 357 cartridges were loaded to a higher pressure than factory .38/44, but handloaders like Elmer Keith loaded them to similar pressures (it is, after all, the same gun). Some say the 357's extra case length was to prevent it from being loaded into weaker 38 Special revolvers, like a K-frame hand-ejector. The other reason for the extra case length was additional powder volume. Since maximum peak pressure can be achieved in the smaller 38 special case, the advantage of more powder volume isn't simply more energy, but to allow enough space for bulkier powders that are more heavily covered in deterrent -- material that slows the combustion of the powder. We call these more heavily-deterred powders "slower." Slower powders allow more total energy to be delivered before the bullet exits the muzzle because they can keep the pressure higher, closer to the maximum peak pressure for a longer time. They create more area under the pressure/time curve. In "2020" terms, they "flatten the curve." In order to get the most out of this, a long barrel is needed or you run out of time and the bullet exits.

    The Registered Magnum was S&W's flagship revolver, and the world's most powerful (production) handgun from 1935 until 1939. Every one of them was custom made to order and an extensive list of hand-crafted features was available. Upon completion, each was "registered" to the original purchaser. J. Edgar Hoover received the first one, and other famous people like General George Patton possessed one. They were remarkably successful as a luxury item in the midst of the Great Depression. In 1939, S&W stopped making Registered Magnums and started making the "357 Magnum," which was a regular production gun (not custom ordered). In 1954 they introduced the "Highway Patrolmen" which was plainer still -- lacking the "357 Magnum"'s top-strap checkering and polished blue finish. In 1957, S&W introduced its model numbering system and the 357 Magnum became the Model 27. The Highway Patrolman became the Model 28. 1957 was also the year S&W introduced the K-frame Model 19 in 357 Magnum. It was greatly preferred by people that carried a gun daily because the N frame was very large and heavy.

    The Colt Python was introduced in 1955. It is smaller than an N-frame S&W, but bigger than a K frame like the model 19. The size is very close to the S&W L-frame (586 and 686 which weren't introduced until 1983).

    S&W continued its production of the Model 27 until 1994. It lost the pinned barrels and recessed chambers in the cylinder by 1982. In 1989 they started producing stainless steel versions. I suspect they may not have called them Model 627 at first, but I'm not sure. They are certainly known as model 627 now. In 1996 they started producing 8-chamber model 627. In 2008 they introduced the Scandium-framed 327, also with eight-chambers. In 2011, S&W re-introduced the Model 27 Classic which is very similar to what they were producing when they stopped producing model 27's in 1994. The differences are the design of the rear sight, the presence of the hammer lock, and MIM parts like the hammer and trigger. Another difference is the barrels used to have broach cut rifling and now they are rifled by an ECM process. These changes, except the lock, are all improvements compared to 1994. I'm ambivalent about the lock. It doesn't ruin the gun, but it's hard to argue that it's an improvement. Overall, a Model 27 Classic is a better gun than a 1994 Model 27. When you go farther back, especially to pre-war Registered Magnums, there's really no comparison. Those were custom-crafted by artisans. They are revolver masterpieces surpassed only by the most elaborate custom jobs and they have historical and collector significance that no current production gun can possess.
     
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  17. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    Yes it's normal.

    Idiots? I can't possibly know that. Inexperienced with revolvers? Most certainly. Inexperienced with guns in general? Absolutely!
     
  18. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    @labnoti how does the Mdl 19 Classic (Mdl 19-9) compare to a pre Mdl 19 Classic (Mdl 19-8)? Similar to the Mdl 27 ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  19. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    On all revolvers, irregardless of maker, including single action revolvers.

    Consider the powder residue on semi-auto pistols. After firing you can see that residue on the hood of the barrel, internally as a build up of gunk, around the muzzle and often on the front sight. On stainless guns you can see that the residue has blackened the front of the slide (the same is on blued guns but it's not as visually obvious). This is not damage to the gun. It's simply burnt powder and residue.

    Regarding flame cutting on revolvers. Folks have been making wheelguns for over a century they know all about flame cutting.

    There is a difference between being ignorant and being butt ignorant. The ignorant will ask if shoe sizes marked in shoes are different in the U.S. than in China and the UK. Butt ignorant will wonder why an American size 12 fits his feet when an American size 10 doesn't and complain about it, then make a video complaining about it.
     
  20. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    Ah. Ok. Makes sense.
     
  21. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    In the video. The owner of the new gun says that he didi not inspect the gun before shooting 26 rounds through it. It may have come from the factory with a crack. Barrels are pressure fit these days. That means there are no threads. The hole in the frame is smaller than the diameter of the section of the barrel which is then pushed into the frame and held there by pressure. If the tolerances are not correct the frame will crack and so it did.

    That is a separate matter from hot ammo.
     
  22. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    There are more substantial changes on the Model 19 Classic. The Model 19 was introduced in 1957 and was hugely popular -- it was the Glock 19 of the 60's, 70's and maybe event the 80's. It struck the right balance of power and ease of carry with good shootability and met most people's expectations for handguns in those decades. Importantly, it maintained a smooth double-action for every shot -- something the Glock sold heavily on when it was introduced in 1986.

    A stainless steel version was introduced in 1971 as the Model 66. Like the Model 27, the Model 19 and 66 lost the pinned barrels and recessed cylinders by 1982. Both were discontinued by 2005 (I think they dropped the 19 in 1999). The 66 was reintroduced in 2014 and the 19 reintroduced in 2018. Both reintroduced guns feature the characteristics of modern S&W revolvers, like the locks, MIM parts, and ECM rifling, but the new 66 and 19 also feature sleeved barrels and detent latches on the crane instead of at the tip of the ejector rod. We discussed this before, but recall that it was an innovation of S&W with their 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model New Century in 1908. It is also a feature of the Dan Wesson revolvers and the Ruger GP-100 and SP-101. The sleeved barrel on a revolver was certainly made most popular by the Dan Wesson designed by Karl Lewis. S&W seems to have caught on to the benefits of that, and Ruger has done it now also also with their Super GP-100.

    I think most "purists" are like Greg Kinman (Hickok45) -- they came up in the era when pinned and recessed Model 19's were at the height of popularity and acclaim. Those were the actual guns that made history and legends in those decades when the revolver was still the overwhelming choice of lawmen and sportsmen alike. "New and improved" just doesn't have the same appeal to them, even if it truly is improved. Greg in particular is not just a fuddy-duddy old man. He could easily make the argument a G5 Glock 19 is even more new and improved so why bother upgrading little nits on a 60 year old gun that wasn't really broken.

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
  23. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    I like Hickok45. Good, down to earth, honest reviews. I personally have no issue w/ new S&W production, with the minor issue of the lock; which can be plugged readily.
     
  24. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    This is misinformation. The barrel sleeves are threaded into the frame the same way unpinned barrels have been for a long, long time. There is some amount of pressure because the barrel is held in place by being tightened with torque. That's a little different than when they were pinned in place. If the barrels or sleeves are torqued properly, there should be no issue.

    S&W revolvers with sleeve and shroud barrels are really no different than an AR 15 barrel is fit and the handguard is fit over it. S&W revolver shrouds are not free float but they also don't have the barrel nut on the end like a Dan Wesson.

    Slip fit barrel liners are an idea. We do that with cylinder liners in aluminum engine blocks. I have not seen S&W do that yet.
     
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  25. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    Are you referring to the 2-piece barrels?

    All the pictures I see of the 2-piece barrels show a barrel with threads.

    https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1154190
     
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