Safe but accessible way to store home defense shot gun

[RPD20]

WOW! Is that Santacruz gunlock ever a ripoff! 200.00 for that, LOL.

For 229.00 to 289.00 you could have the V-Line which is a very heavy duty product...........

http://www.authoritysafes.com/v-line.html

 

[oldbanjo]

For that price I'd buy another gun, throw the gun under the bed and lock the bedroom door.

 

[rondog]

I don't think a kid younger than around 12 could do any of that...

True story. A friend of mine was watching TV and let his toddler get out of sight for a few minutes. The boy was outside. He'd taken dad's keys off the table, unlocked the trunk on his '55 Chevy, removed all the jack parts, assembled the jack, and was working on hooking it up under the rear bumper when Mom pulled in the driveway and caught him. Cody was 2 or 3 I think, not very damn old anyway. Mom was PO'd. So, kids WILL find guns and fool with them! I know I did.

 

[ArmedLiberal]

How exactly is a young child going to get to a hanging shotgun that's 7' off the ground and have the upper body strength to life it up and off the hooks?

First, the child would have to find it. You could easily conceal it by hanging a towel or cloth over it, preferably one that matches the color of the wall. It would effectively become invisible.

Second, the child would have to get a tall enough stool to climb up there and lift it off. Figure out how to rack the slide, and remove the safety.

I don't think a kid younger than around 12 could do any of that...

How long are you leaving your small children unsupervised?

For an adult to deploy the shotty, it would take about 5 seconds to retrieve it and rack the slide and remove the safety.

Your post makes one think that you have had little experience with children. They are inquisitive and resourceful beyond all reason. Putting a towel over your gun just signals that there might be something interesting under the towel. How many American 7 year olds have never seen Bruce Willis rack a shotgun?

 

[leadcounsel]

Do the math...

If you hang your shotty 7' off the floor on hooks, it will require someone that can REACH over 7' in the air and the arm/shoulder strength to lift an 8+ pound shotgun up and off the hooks.

How tall is the average toddler or young child. Maybe 12 was a strecth, but you get the idea.

Say the child is 4' tall with arms reached up. A chair is 2' tall. Still a foot too short.

Don't keep a ladder or tall stool in the room.

Teach your kids right and wrong, and keep an eye on them. Why are they unsupervised in your bedroom anyway??? That right there is a BIG discipline problem!!!

 

[RPD20]

I think locks are a good idea with children. My HD pistols are in quick access vaults. My shotguns however are not. My girls ages 5 and 7 will not touch my guns. I have taken the mystery away from them. Shown them how destructive a gun can be. Preached the dangers and concequences just as my father did to me and his father before.

 

[GigaBuist]

Do the math...

If you hang your shotty 7' off the floor on hooks, it will require someone that can REACH over 7' in the air and the arm/shoulder strength to lift an 8+ pound shotgun up and off the hooks.

2.5' toddler + 5' broom == Shotgun

We're tool using monkeys, man, even the kids.

 

[Skribs]

http://www.gunvault.com/gun-locks/breechvault.html

As someone said, the breechvault is simple, and just requires a key. Price 19.95, fits Mossberg, Remington, and Winchester 12-Gauge shotguns. I'm not sure if it would fit others, but it might.

I also agree with CoRoMo, kids can get into stuff. I've read stories on LearnFromMyFail of parents who say their five-year-old will turn on a computer game so the parent thinks they're playing the game, and then proceed to paint the floor, chairs, etc. Little kids are a lot smarter than people give them credit. Just because they make a lot of dumb decisions doesn't mean they're necessarily dumb.

Do not underestimate the ability of an 8 year old to find a way to climb up high and get the gun off the rack. Remember - they don't need to hold it all the way down, just knock it off the rack and let it fall to the ground. Then they can put the stock against the ground and pump it. Trust me, I could have figured that out easily in elementary school after playing Doom. Have you seen Home Alone? That was a movie, but I can see a kid left unattended for a few minutes climbing up and finding the air rifle.

 

[xcgates]

I don't have kids, as a matter of fact, since renting this place, only myself, one neighbor, one installer from AT&T, and one repairman has been inside.

I do however, remember being quite a persistent bugger when it came to getting into things. Kids can stack books to get up higher, or as mentioned, keep whacking at something with a long stick until it falls.

Kids are unpredictable, and if you think you can have eyes on them every single second they are in your custody, you are either superman, or mistaken.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

leadcounsel, it is glaringly obvious that you have little to no experience raising a child. I would suggest that you politely bow out of this discussion until you have spent a a decent amount of time with your own child in your own house and learn what even the smallest toddlers are capable of. Arguing with parents about the capabilities of children and lecturing them on raising children isn't winning you any friends or impressing us with your mathematical ability. Seriously. It really is a been there, done that thing.

Back to to the original question:
While this item has some downsides when compared to the vline options, the price seems much more reasonable. I haven't seen one in person and I suspect it is little more than sheet metal, but it might be an option until the kids learn the bic pen trick or where you stash the keys: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Stack-On-In-Wall-Cabinet-Beige/11071334

As the locks would likely slow one down, you might have to develop a routine of unlocking it at night and securing it in the morning. Like all these suggestions, it might be tricky to find something that works in your situation.

 

[CoRoMo]

Both V-Line and Stack-On make an in-the-wall long gun 'safe'. I bought the V-Line version. It is a fantastic item, if you can mount it out of sight. The best idea is to mount it right in the wall, behind the bedroom door when it is open. The Stack-On version, IMO, is cheaper in both respects, but it can accomplish the same thing.

Here is the problem: most home framing spaces those studs so that a stud sits right where you'd want the 'safe' to sit. This means the box will have to be mounted on one side of that stud, or the other. What that means is the box will either be jammed into the corner (if it fits there at all) or it will hang out in sight and the door knob will hit it. There is no point in mounting it behind the door if either of these will be the result. Before you go this route, find your studs and find the very spot you KNOW you want it to be. I didn't do this until I had ordered and received it already.

There are obviously other places you can put one of these, if you want it out of sight. Behind curtains, inside a closet, etc. I can say, the V-Line looks great, so if you don't mind it being right in sight, it isn't ugly. I think this type of cabinet is best when out of sight because if a burglar sees it, it will not be very hard to tear it open.

Also, if you're like me and can do any framing/drywall for yourself, or if you're building a home, or finishing a basement, you control where the studs are.

 

[leadcounsel]

Discipline and education

leadcounsel, it is glaringly obvious that you have little to no experience raising a child. I would suggest that you politely bow out of this discussion until you have spent a a decent amount of time with your own child in your own house and learn what even the smallest toddlers are capable of. Arguing with parents about the capabilities of children and lecturing them on raising children isn't winning you any friends or impressing us with your mathematical ability. Seriously. It really is a been there, done that thing.

And yet, education and discipline is really the key to this whole discussion. Education is one of the things I recommended that you're overlooking.

We gun owners want it both ways. On the one hand we scream and shout that guns are just tools like a hammer or a table saw or steak-knives or whatever...

And yet we're the first to run out and buy the next wizbang $300 super vault to secure our home defense shotty or handgun. (Yes I own a safe for my collection, but the home defense shotty and handgun are out and accessible and loaded while I'm home; and having a kid would not change that.)

I repeat, 1) WHERE is the parenting and education? 2) WHY is your kid messing around in your room? and 3) WHERE is the adult supervision???

I may not have kids, but if I did they would be 1) Taught, 2) Not allowed in Dad's room without dad present and 3) Supervised.

For those that want to lock up tighter than Fort Knox your home defense shotty, do you also lock up your matchbooks and lighters, do you also lock up your steak knives, do you also lock up your hammers??? Nope. Put them up, out of reach, education and discipline.

I'm not here to impress anyone, just to help people knock off the liberalism nonsense. Who's in CONTROL here? If you can't control your kids then you've got big problems in life.

How did ANY of us survive living in homes with unlocked glass display cases, sitting in the front room, filled with shotguns and rifles and boxes of ammo laying right next to them? One word. Discipline. One more word. Education.

 

[swinokur]

I have 2 grown children and two grandchildren. Let me say this:

No amount of education, indoctrination, discipline or training can overcome the natural curiosity of a child. All security should be multilayered. Keep weapons locked away from children unless you are physically with them. If there is a failure of the first layer, then the education and training area can be the second layer to improve safety and possibly avert tragedy.

My .02

 

[CoRoMo]

It's also obvious that you don't remember breaking the rules when you were a kid.

You can teach, tell, and instruct, but kids will violate what they are taught, told, and instructed. Every parent loses track of their kid at one point or another. Every parent has to put their kids under the supervision of someone else at one point or another.

Every kid will try to get to that thing, that Mom & Dad have kept them from. You mention matches. Didn't you ever slip away when you were little, because you found a lighter or some matches, and you knew a place where you could be alone? No? Hmmm, that's odd.

How did ANY of us survive ...One word. Discipline. One more word. Education.

Not me, I disregarded my discipline and education, and I broke pretty much every rule that I was given. How did I survive? I can't possibly tell you. I should be dead or in jail, but I'm not. Someone's watching over me, that's for sure.

You're not trying to impress, I know. Just imagine how you are coming across though.

 

[Six]

leadcounsel, if you're relying on your kids obeying you, why not just keep the shotgun out in the open to begin with?

I'm reminded of:
"If Plan A is to take multiple .338 shots to the back, you really need to come up with a Plan B."

I'll make a parents version:
If plan A is to depend on the wisdom of a 4 year old, you really need to come up with a Plan B.

And I'll take your parenting advice for what it's worth.

 

[roo_ster]

IMO, anything that requires a key is neither quick-access nor secure.

Finding a key hole at 0dark30 is gonna be not-fun and having a key available while you sleep is a Bad Idea, when kids can get up and pad around.

I'd love to see Mossberg produce their Loc-Box with a simplex lock, same with Gunvault's Breechvault. Especially at a Mossberg price.

The http://www.shotlock.com/ Shot Lock shotgun system looks like the only reasonable way to keep a shotgun both secure and quick to access(1), as it uses a combo that can be entered using sense of touch. Until others follow their lead, $170 is the ante in this game.

And by "secure" I mean out of kids' hands. I've no doubt it might be ripped out of the stud it was secured to, carted off to some location, and freed with an angle grinder by a burglar.

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leadcounsel:

Jorg was gentle and on-target. It is pretty obvious you have little or no experience with small children. Come back when you do and your comments will be much more clueful. Proverbs 17:28 might come in handy.

-----------

This is wisdom and/or experience speaking:

All security should be multilayered. Keep weapons locked away from children unless you are physically with them. If there is a failure of the first layer, then the education and training area can be the second layer to improve safety and possibly avert tragedy.

To that end, I teach my kiddos not to touch firearms without an adult present and have put the Eddie Eagle video on loop for hours at a time They both can quote EE verbatim and know what each bit means. But, they are 4 & 6 YO and allowances must be made for youth.

The only weapons out in the wild and not locked up are those on my person. Some are locked up loaded in quick-access configuration, some locked up unloaded.

As another wise man whose area of expertise is information security said, "Security is a process, not a product."





(1) That I know of ATM that are not in-wall punch-code safes. I hope I am proved wrong quickly and with numerous examples to the contrary.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I was about 6 when I popped the cheap Masterlock padlock on the Christmas closet with a paperclip, then played with all my future toys, including my Dad's bringback P38.
Got busted, literally and figuratively.

.

 

[deafdave3]

I would have said the same thing: put it above the door. By the time the child is old enough to figure out how to reach it, then the child is old enough to be responsible. My 14 year old daughter can't reach my shotgun without a chair, but I sure as hell hope she knows how to get it when the time is right.

Why not just talk to your children? I have talked to all three of mine for many, many years about gun safety. They do not know which one is loaded and which one isn't. They have told me in their own words, "I promise not to touch any of the guns unless we going shoot out in the boondocks." And they have proved that responsibility to me.

 

[PR-NJ]

I think locks are a good idea with children.

Not only a good idea, but required by law in many jurisdictions. Kid shoots himself or someone else with your gun that wasn't locked and guess who's ass is in the legal crosshairs?

My girls ages 5 and 7 will not touch my guns.

BIG difference between girls and boys. Just saying.

 

[Balrog]

leadcounsel, if you're relying on your kids obeying you, why not just keep the shotgun out in the open to begin with?

Yes leadcounsel, if what you say is true then I ought to load my gun, prop it in the corner next to my bed, and tell the kids not to mess with it. Would you think that would be a good idea?

Also, even if your kids are well disciplined, you are never going to have them under complete 24 hr surveillance and supervision. Especially if you have more than one.

Also, the idea that your kids will never go into your bedroom to begin with is abdsurd. You never went into your parents room?

Also, even if your kid is a model child and 100 percent controlled 100 percent of the time, what happens when a neighbors kid comes over?

BIG difference between girls and boys. Just saying

I agree with this completely. I have three girls, and they have never ever had any interest in looking at guns at home, even though they all go shooting with me. I have a 3 yr old boy, who has never shot so much as a squirt gun, and every time he sees a gun, he gets excited.

I know enough about kids to know I am not going to rely on trying to just put the gun up high, and hope for the best.

 

[leadcounsel]

Yes leadcounsel, if what you say is true then I ought to load my gun, prop it in the corner next to my bed, and tell the kids not to mess with it. Would you think that would be a good idea?

Highroad or not, why are some people here so thickskulled... when did I ever advocate for this? Please enlighten me... Some people purposefully and blatantly misrepresent other folks positions to somehow "win" arguments.

Lock up your guns or don't. But by treating them as magically evil objects you are BOWING to the left wing liberals who brainwash you into thinking that these terrifying objects (which by the way weren't committing mayhem just a couple decades ago) are suddenly sooo horrific that we need space-age locks and gizmos to contain the evil magical powers...

Of course you should store your gun responsibly, just like you lock your front door to your home, keep your matches away from your kids, etc. But to take all of these additional procedures just caves in to the lefties... Just sayin'

I would have said the same thing: put it above the door. By the time the child is old enough to figure out how to reach it, then the child is old enough to be responsible. My 14 year old daughter can't reach my shotgun without a chair, but I sure as hell hope she knows how to get it when the time is right.

Why not just talk to your children? I have talked to all three of mine for many, many years about gun safety. They do not know which one is loaded and which one isn't. They have told me in their own words, "I promise not to touch any of the guns unless we going shoot out in the boondocks." And they have proved that responsibility to me.

Thank you Deafdave! At least someone here hasn't lost his marbles...

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

But by treating them as magically evil objects you are BOWING to the left wing liberals who brainwash you into thinking that these terrifying objects (which by the way weren't committing mayhem just a couple decades ago) are suddenly sooo horrific that we need space-age locks and gizmos to contain the evil magical powers

I'm not sure how recognizing the inherent ability of firearms to quickly and devastatingly damage a human body is making them into "magic evil objects". If they are the same as hammers and steak knives, why aren't you running around Iraq with those?

While a child can certainly do damage with other objects, there are few things more effective in killing or severely injuring a person minimal effort than a firearm. Therefore, firearms, like other items that are dangerous in little hands, need to be secured appropriately. The difference is that some of the other dangerous items don't necessarily need to be readily available for self-defense and are easily stowed away.

 

[xcgates]

When I have kids in the area, I will either be with them in the garage watching them, or the garage (and all the dangerous things in it) will be locked. That includes the keys to my vehicles.

Toxic cleaning chemicals will be secured as best as possible from the kiddos.

All I can say is that I was remarkably good at getting into things. Hot stoves taught me real quick not to touch, and my parent's did a pretty darn good job kid-proofing the house. Nothing is sure with the ingenious little twats.

So bottom line, anything dangerous gets secured from kids as best as possible. Not just guns.

 

[Skribs]

Keep in mind that just because it's a rule, that doesn't mean kids will obey the rule. A rule such as "don't go in here unless I'm present" is by definition nearly impossible to enforce, as the only time the rule can possibly be broken is when you're not present; i.e. you would likely have no knowledge of the infraction nor any easy way to discipline them. With things like surfing adult websites, skipping school, etc., mistakes can be bad but generally aren't life threatening. If the kid breaks the rule and gets the gun, it could be very serious.

I'm not saying guns are evil, but guns are dangerous. They don't need to be always hidden and locked away, but they do need to be respected and protected. A kid is likely not going to give a gun the respect it deserves, and are going to get hurt if they have access to it. The only way to legitimately limit access to it is to make it as difficult as possible to get to without the proper tool (be it a key, combination, etc). A high rack and an "off limits" room mean nothing when you're on the other side of the house and the kid has a chair and a broom.

In order to supervise your kids 24/7, you would have to sleep in the same room, go to the bathroom with them, bathe with them, etc. Which might be fine for a very young child, but real quick can turn into a form of child abuse. That child is going to have severe problems letting the parent go and doing anything by themselves later in life. So unless you want to literally spend 24 hours a day with your child until they leave the house, there will be times when your children are unsupervised.

 

[danez71]

I repeat, 1) WHERE is the parenting and education? 2) WHY is your kid messing around in your room? and 3) WHERE is the adult supervision???

Pssst.... there are over 20 million kids living in single family homes. The math you mention isnt hard.

I may not have kids, but if I did they would be.......

As stated, you speak from inexperience... as most have already pointed out.

I may not have kids, but if I did they would be 1) Taught, 2) Not allowed in Dad's room without dad present and 3) Supervised.

Yet, a contradiction seems to have surfaced by you already have advocated that hanging it on the wall covered with a towl is an effective means to keep it away from children under 12 by stating the following quote.

How exactly is a young child going to get to a hanging shotgun that's 7' off the ground and have the upper body strength to life it up and off the hooks?

First, the child would have to find it. You could easily conceal it by hanging a towel or cloth over it, preferably one that matches the color of the wall. It would effectively become invisible.

Second, the child would have to get a tall enough stool to climb up there and lift it off. Figure out how to rack the slide, and remove the safety.

I don't think a kid younger than around 12 could do any of that...

...... And yet we're the first to run out and buy the next wizbang $300 super vault to secure our home defense shotty or handgun.

Yes, some people spend $300 to secure the home defense gun.

You've stated you spend $5 on hooks and a towel. Personal preference, I suppose.

Unfortunately it doesnt do anything to answer the OPs question.


Back to topic..
Ive seen the Mossberg lock box in RCmodles post. Seems pretty good form the 1 min look over at a friends house.

Ive personally used the ~$100 heavy gauge sheet metal generic gun cabinet.

Through education and deterrent, my kid is a still alive to enjoy shooting today.