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Safe, Legal way to inform an aggressor you are carrying

Discussion in 'Legal' started by undeRGRound, Feb 16, 2013.

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  1. zoom6zoom

    zoom6zoom Member

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    I open carry, so the situation isn't likely to occur.
     
  2. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Leave the situation.

    If you can 'see' that things are escalating to the point where someone is going to possibly die, and you have the opportunity to leave, then you must.

    Or just start open-carrying if it's legal.
     
  3. Alaska444

    Alaska444 member

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    Yup, if you carry, you MUST seek ways to deescalate situations or avoid them altogether. Actually that is good advice for everyone whether you carry or not.

    Obviously, not all situations are avoidable which is quite different.
     
  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    True.

    And somehow I think a point is being missed here that often gets lost as we work out the legal issues:

    Someone seeing, or being informed, that you are armed CAN be a deterrent. And deterrence is always better than being attacked or having to shoot someone.

    What I'm pointing out is that you STILL have to have some articulable reason why you had to do that thing (because otherwise it is a crime to threaten someone, even by implication) and that is tricky ground in the early stages of an event when deterrence is still likely to be possible.

    Some hold that your gun should NEVER be known about until it is pointed and the trigger is coming back. If the aggressor stops what he's doing completely and immediately, you may not complete the shot, but otherwise, if you have to draw you are intending to fire.

    Given all the other "tools in the toolbox" that we should practice regarding de-escalation, avoidance, verbal and body language cues, etc., I think it is more prudent to follow a plan that does not include flashing or indicating your weapon until it is coming into play.

    While the sight of a gun can be an effective deterrent, that's a dangerous card to play and there are better ways to achieve the same effect in most cases, that don't leave you overstepping the bounds of the law, yourself, in order to back someone off.
     
  5. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    I will say it again, I said it before

    When you pull a gun it's binary, no matter what, you now are in a DEADLY situation
    you will get the criminal that knows how far he can push it, who doubts your intent, who is USED to having people flash guns around

    and when you escalate it by introducing deadly force,
    his response 'what are you going to do, shoot me'
    You just took another step in the monkey dance...
     
  6. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    And that's a good way to put it.

    The gun is only a tool to stop an attack, not part of a threat display to back someone down.

    The fact that it sometimes does "win" the monkey dance has saved lots of lives, surely, but that doesn't mean doing so is what we should plan for.
     
  7. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Right and a point of the monkey dance, is you don't win by dancing (and this goes to the interview process also) you win by walking away or STOPPING it.

    The trick is to show that you will not attack, while at the same time presenting certain defeat (price too high to pay) for them to attack, fail the interview, decline the dance, exit stage left...
     
  8. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    Mindset is everything when you carry a firearm. Whenever you carry, you must go about your business in a manner that, first and foremost, does everything humanly possible to avoid a situation where you might feel the need to draw.

    That goes for when you're not carrying as well.

    The integration of a properly conceived and practiced self-defense mindset with diligent situational awareness allows us to avoid or de-escalate nearly every situation in which the need for engaging in overt self defense measures could arise.
     
  9. clamman

    clamman Member

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    I work a counter during the day. Last week a person came in and asked for a job. I said were not hiring. He kept coming, so I put my hand on the gun under counter because he was sending bad vibes to me. As soon as he saw that motion he turned and left the premises fast! There was no doubt he was planning on robbing me.
     
  10. Hapworth

    Hapworth Member

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  11. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    And yet some would say you should be arrested for even suggesting by your motions that you might be armed. Good thing the would-be robber didn't run to the cops and report you! (of course, they probably know him...)
    How about instead saying something like "I DON'T WANT ANY TROUBLE" while putting your hand on your still-covered gun? You're trying to back away from the Monkey Dance while showing the other guy that maybe he should do the same. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do that...
     
  12. LiENUS

    LiENUS Member

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    When I worked at the prison they taught us in defensive tactics to put our hands up about chest height open hands palms facing the person and give them direct verbal orders to stop no "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU IF YOU DONT STOP" but "hey man stop this, theres no need for this"
    This wont work if the person has a gun themselves but for your average mugging situation it puts your hands at a good height to block an initial blow, gives you the opportunity to use open handed control tactics if the situation presents itself and looks really freaking good from the perspective of you arguing self defense should it turn out someone was videoing the whole ordeal.
    That said, if the aggressor has a knife already in their hands or a weapon or you are older/sick/handicapped or in some way unable to react as strongly or as swiftly as they are you'll want to find another tactic. For your average 20 year old male in decent shape, this is about the ideal stance for dealing with an aggressor it is stepping along with the monkey dance to some degree but it has the remarkable effect of making most people step down from the monkey dance quite fast. I didn't mention feet positioning but it's actually quite similar to shooting stance.
     
  13. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Noooooo. Putting your hand under the counter doesn't bring the word or the visual of GUN into the discussion. That is different.

    Now, guy walks into your shop and asks about a job and you say "Not hiring," but he decides to approach the counter to tell you how great a worker he is and how much he needs the work, etc. ... and you flash a gun or make some statement that indicates you might shoot him?

    Heck yes, he can go to the police. Fine lines, here, but not invisible ones.
     
  14. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    And the points are:

    1. What you do needs to be driven by exactly what's happening and how, and your exercise of good judgment under the circumstances. There's no "if-that-than-this" formula.

    2. Whatever you choose to do, you might be called on it. So you want to be able to articulate why you thought you needed to do what you did.
     
  15. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    ^^ Having personally been through the wringer once, this is very good advice.

    EDIT: After that incident (12+ years ago), I made the decision that if the first indication a person trying to kill me is ever going to have that I am in possession of a firearm, is muzzleflash.
     
  16. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Javier Bardem was scary in "No Country for Old Men" precisely because he DIDN'T do the "monkey dance". He didn't scream or get excited. He just told you what he wanted. After that it was up to you.

    The more experienced predator knows when he's booted the victim selection process. If he wanted to work for his money (never mind die for it), he'd get a job. He'll pick a rabbit over a saltwater crocodile given the choice.

    Serious druggies? They don't know what they're doing themselves half the time. Reading your intentions accurately is a stretch. Don't get ensnared in their gibberish, which is usually half victim distraction, half self-directed peptalk.

    As I said previously, I don't want to engage with most non-intoxicated, non-criminals. You can be sure I'm not wasting syllables on low-lifes. I'm polite, in a formalistic, Japanese sort of way. I'm NOT friendly, and not ashamed of it either. "I've got nothing for you." in an emotionless monotone is equivalent to Hamlet's soliloquy for me. If it's appropriate, I'll attempt to leave. It's well advised to let me.
     
  17. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    With a bullet once you have exhausted all other means to escape the situation and your life is now dependent on your action.

    Why would you want to inform someone that intends to do you harm that you have a tool that they could use against you. I guess this is how people get shot with their own gun.
     
  18. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Possibly.

    More usually, it's a combination of:
    1. Lack of preparation - Empty chamber, poor carry method, poor quality of tools (firearm, holster), lack of familiarity with ones tools, lack of training, etc.
    2. Lack of resolve - A greater commitment to avoiding violence than avoiding harm to oneself, a lack of determination to prevail no matter the cost, etc.
    In a very large portion of the instances where I've heard of an armed crime victim being harmed, especially with his or her own weapon, the victim demonstrated a greater concern for avoiding harm to their assailant than to themselves. Attempts to "negotiate", displaying the firearm without using it, warning shots, etc., are all hallmarks of this irresolution.

    In a deadly force encounter, hesitation or indecision can be fatal to the victim.
     
  19. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    MOST Excellent Advice, everyone!
    Like my wife noted, I drove much safer when I bought
    a Radar Detector, as I was being much more aware of
    everything around me. It was a tool for safer driving,
    Alerting me to monetary hazards (lol) but also road
    hazards too. Sometimes a LEO will aim the radar towards
    oncoming traffic, constant on, to alert the drivers.

    I believe and hope to maintain a similar mindset with CCW.
    I am already doing this on many levels!
     
  20. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    This is basically a good answer to my original question as
    it was in my mind, if not in words. Exactly what I wanted.
    I had a situation once about 3 years ago where a guy's Ex
    was talking to me, (in part at least to get him P.O.'ed) and
    he came close to my personal space, making threats. Total
    Monkey Dancer. 110%! I was in full De-escalation mode, but
    nearly had to try something else!
    I was ready for the bums rush but he held off.
    Good thing for both of us, no jail trips or hospital visits.
    These young Turks are not all Stupid, I guess! Lol

    So I need to keep learning...
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  21. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    Meant to also include the above
     
  22. sonick808

    sonick808 Member

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    AZ has a "legal brandishing" law on the books, but i don't trust it for one second.

    If you can't divert your path or talk your way out, RUN.... freaking RUN.

    Past that, you have to decide if your life is in danger.
     
  23. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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    The safest and most legal method to inform someone who is threatening you is to shoot them. Now they are informed.
     
  24. 4season

    4season Member

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    What about flaring your shirt/jacket

    I can't remember the article but I read somewhere, from a "self-defense specialist" that sometimes merely unzipping your jacket, un-tucking your shirt, or something else that would indicate you are clearing room to draw your weapon can be enough to make an attacker think twice. May not be reliant to your particular situation but I can see in a "walking down a dark alley" situation where this could be a good deterrent.
    Of course I firmly believe that your best self defense weapon is between your ears. Keep your head about your and your gun is very secondary.
     
  25. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    This is a good plan in most cases. What you don't want to do is get locked in some kind of argument with the nutcase about who's going to win a fight. Just step away and exit ASAP, making no threats.

    Threatening you with imminent unlawful deadly force. Not the mere threat of future harm.

    I'm not a big fan of any warnings at all, even the "STOP" command often yelled in training. If the light is green, you shoot or die. If the light changes you hit the brakes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
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