Safety of tasers?

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brerrabbit

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From an earlier thread, there were many people saying that tasers are safe for use as a method of compliance by LEO.

Why are they safe?

I have been an occupational electrical worker for over 20 years. It is generally accepted as fact that if you get a shock, you need to get an electrocardiogram afterwards. The fundamental concept is that an electrical shock can disturb your hearts rythm for up to 24 hours afterwards at random times. This has resulted in death quite a few times.

Why does the use of a taser not require medical screening of the victim afterwards? Generally it is applied directly across the chest, quite likely the worst place to intentionally shock a person. Why is it considered safe to repeatedly shock a person across the chest?
 
Tasers aren't completely safe as evidenced by the fact that people do occasionally die after being zapped by one. They're supposed to be safe because they only generate about 2.5-3mA's and it's usually considered that it takes around 6mA's to stop the heart.

They're are a lot safer than the alternative -- being shot.
 
Technically they are not considered safe or "non lethal" they are called by the euphemism "less lethal" and compared to conventional firearms they are.
They are a nice addition to the LEO spectrum of tools when used appropriately. The same can be said for virtually any device devised by man and and any class of persons.

The problem is not when they are used as an alternative to lethal force in self defense. The problem is when they are used as a means of gaining compliance from citizens through the threat of or use of force even when said citizens are not a physical threat to the officer. That is why they are a problem.
 
Taser-induced fatalities make headlines. Successful, non-injurious incidents do not. From what incident reports we do see that make the news, tasers are brought out when there is resistance to LEO duties.

Beats heck out of getting shot, or getting clubbed down.

A taser is just a tool, like a gun, monkey wrench or hammer. Anything can be misused or used in a foolish manner.

What's new?

Art
 
Taser-induced fatalities make headlines. Successful, non-injurious incidents do not. From what incident reports we do see that make the news, tasers are brought out when there is resistance to LEO duties.

Beats heck out of getting shot, or getting clubbed down.

A taser is just a tool, like a gun, monkey wrench or hammer. Anything can be misused or used in a foolish manner.

What's new?

Art
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Finally a voice of reason....There is hope !!!:) :) :)
 
The Dept quit using Tasers after 9 people died overa three year period, (IIRC) so they panicked, and pulled a great tool.
OTOH, I have seen an individual take 4 Taser shots, and keep on going.:what:
 
The problem with tasers as I see it, there are few repercussions for the police to use them so that they are more likely to escalate a situation.

Beats heck out of getting shot, or getting clubbed down.
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The overwhelming majority of taser uses are not situations where use of deadly force would have been required. Most cases are generally chemically disadvantaged people that the cop does not want to get dirty wrestling. For the cops, its a great tool, pull a trigger and a person you have an issue with is on the ground writhing in convulsions.

Because it is considered non lethal, many consider it safe. As said before, running any type of electricity across a persons chest is dangerous. Any police force or manufacturer that says otherwise is being less than honest or is unqualified to use them due to ignorance of the dangers.

Because it is considered non lethal, thus safe, there are no major consequences to an LEO using a taser. Because of a lack of consequences they are more likely to be used.
 
As I understand it, "taser deaths" on post-mortem have been found to be drug overdose, secondary trauma (falling and hitting their head), or compromised breathing (from being handcuffed in unusual positions, pinned, etc). The doctor I worked for this summer had been keeping up with tasers and said they hadn't been shown to have caused any deaths. So, yes, people have died after getting tazed, but was it the taser that caused the death?
Of course, it's hard to say what the real science is on these types of issues, as propaganda tends to be more prevalent than the truth. I think they're safe, anyway.
 
Pretty good hair splitting going on.

It is like pretending someone who died from an allergic reaction to OC has nothing to do with OC being used on him in the first place.

The vast majority of Taserings don't result in serious injury to the Taseree. In fact, as I understand it, most police departments require their officers to get the Taser experience as part of their training before they are issued Tasers.

My beef with Taser usage is that it appears that Tasers are being used more and more to punish people for perceived lack of adequate respect to LE than for any legitimate reason.
 
My beef with Taser usage is that it appears that Tasers are being used more and more to punish people for perceived lack of adequate respect to LE than for any legitimate reason.
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That's my problem with it too. I agree it's a very useful tool and some people absolutely need to be tased (violent, totally non-compliant, etc). However it seems to be used a lot (at least in this neck of the woods) for situations that don't necessitate that level of force. Some almost seem to be a "You lookin at me boy?" *zap* scenario. I'll probably get flamed (or tased :p ) for my viewpoint but that's what I've seen.
I think deaths from them are rare but with increased use we'll see more of them. I wonder how death rates from OC and bean bags compare to taser usage (not being sarcastic, I'm just curious). Like another poster said however, it's probably hard to determine taser/OC/bean bag the sole or primary cause of death.
 
Nobody knows how safe they are. The company says "We zapped a dozen pigs, and they're okay. Tasers are just fine." To the best of my knowledge there have been no controlled, peer-reviewed clinical studies of their effects. They are a great tool in their place, but they do have an amazing potential for abuse by bad officers. "Hey, I can be an enlightened community policing public servant and torture without leaving marks." :scrutiny:
 
Tellner,
I suggest you read these studies:

Pacing and Clinical Electrophysiology (PACE) Journal cardiac safety study
http://www.taser.com/documents/PACE_Dr_McDaniel_Rpt.pdf

Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University – Mankato Report
http://www.taser.com/documents/Force_Science_News_TASER_Issues.pdf

New excited delirium and correlation to in custody death proximal to restraint
http://www.taser.com/documents/Sudden.pdf

Florida Gulf Coast University Study
http://www.taser.com/documents/Orange_Co_FL_Div_of_Justice_Study.pdf

U.S. Department of Defense Study (HECOE)
http://www.taser.com/documents/HECOE_Report_Summary_101804.pdf

British Columbia TASER Review
http://www.opcc.bc.ca/Reports/Reports Home Page.htm

U. K. DOMILL Medical Statement
http://www.taser.com/documents/UK_DOMILL_med_statement.pdf

You don't really think that in our litigious society that someone would market a product like that without a lot of research to prove it was truly less lethal, do you?

I seem to recall similar complaints about about OC when it first came into widespread use in about 1994. Yes, people have died from being sprayed with OC.

There are certain organiztions who would say it was inhumane if we armed the police with dispensers that would envelope the suspect in cotton candy. Probably be too bad on the suspects teeth and waistline....:rolleyes:

Jeff
 
After all this hot debate about Tasers, I went to the gun shop up the street and guess who was there. The Taser rep with his entire truck of goodies. Now with all this in the news these days, it was really an interesting talk that I had with him. Their big push at these events though is to try and get as many people as they can to "ride the lighting". They have a unit set up for demonstration that the aligator clip to your clothing, the probes do not need to even be inside your skin to work. I witnessed about 10 people volunteer to be subjects and all of them walked away, albeit quite painfully. I highly doubt that as a company, they'd encourage their sales team to go around the country "zapping" folks if they weren't 100% sure that the taser itself is not lethal. I am a firm believer in other factors (drug od, etc) being involved in deaths that occured after tasering.
 
Well here in my neck of the woods a kid died from a taser a few weeks ago (he was 17). I am kind of mixed as to how I feel about them. The kid that died did struggle with the police however was unarmed and there were six police officers present. You mean to tell me six cops couldnt handle one 17 y/o boy :scrutiny: . I think tasers should only be used as a substitute for lethal force, ie if you wouldnt use a gun in the situation dont use a taser. The fact of the matter is the department in question had just gotten tasers the week before and I think this cop just wanted to try out his new toy. If I am right a kid is now dead out of curiousity. It isnt my intention to make this an leo bashing thread but if six cops couldnt handle one unarmed 17y/o I dont think they have any business in law enforcement.
 
autopsy

glock fan were you talking about the kid rantingg with the bible? that attacked the cops? the autopsy get back yet are are we still guessing what killed him?
 
so

Without an autopsy isn't it a lil premature to say the taser killed him? Do we know what made him rant and attack the cops yet?Was it a mental illness issue or a selfinduced chemivcal thing? Or doesn't that matter? We had trouble here with pcp users croaking after being forcibly restrained since tasers came out we don't have that problem. we did have a tragedy where a disturbed man fell and hit his head but thats even more likely if 3 or 4 cops tackle you so it seems that here we ended up with less hurt on both sided of the law and order fence.
 
If you get a shock you probably have no idea exactly how much of a shock you got. With a taser the limit is set and it's perfectly safe.

People occassionally do die after being hit with tasers but in all fairness most (all?) of those were frail to the point that they probably wouldn't have lived much longer anyway.
 
Perhaps but I still stand by my conviction that six cops should have been able to handle him without a taser. Pepper spray would have been more appropriate.
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Excuse me for putting it this way, but have you EVER tried to restrain a resisting subject? Until you've dealt with someone tweaking on meth or in some other way unaware of their "physical limits" you have no way of imagining just how strong even a scrawny looking meth head can be. We had to restrain one a couple months ago and it took five officers and a taser to subdue a 5' 6" 140 pound 28 year old man. Even at that, he jumped on one of our cruisers and kicked the windshield in. OC had no effect, and it wasn't until someone arrived on scene with a taser that we were able to cuff him. He was frothing at the mouth and biting. Do you really wanna pile onto him and risk getting bitten?

By the way, here's a link to a study you might want to read to become more familiar with sudden death proximal to restraint:

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/btw2004/articles/1220sudden.pdf

Basically what the study is saying is that in some instances, delirious subjects react like wild animals to merely being restrained. If a cardiac intensive care unit isn't immediately available with a crash cart and proper training on treatment of delirium induced cardiac arrest then the person may die anyway.

Don't be so quick to judge until the autopsy results are in.

BTW, all our officers certified to carry the Taser have to "ride the lightning". We all walked away without further inicident or treatment, even the old farts like me. :D
 
Just watched the video and I see no problem. The student was resisting, had a point to prove, and a sympathetic audience to play to. If this had happened in a dark parking lot, the guy might have been much quicker to comply. As it is, he walked away with a memory of some pain and no physical damage. If the officers had used OC they would have had lawsuits from the bystanders who inevitably would have been exposed.

It hurts, I know first hand, but it ain't torture.
 
Sacp, years back I was in college and grad school. This was prior to the
advent of tasers, but not spray and tonfas. I can't recall how many student
fights, stupid drunks, parking space disputes, etc I saw handled without a
weapon, lethal or non-leathal, even being used.

The taser was abused. I and another person could have easily done a
two-man carry on the guy, out the front door, with no time for a vid-phone
to be flipped open. But as it was, I'm sure it was a long shift for the officers
and they were probably tired or something. However, it was quite evident
they were perturbed by his failure to comply with their orders. The repeated
use of the taser escalated rather than calmed the situation.

The guy was tased not for failure to show an ID but really having an "attitude"
about it. Of course, in today's America, attitude while speaking up to defend
your rights is a crime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EahooGbQrUs

Yep, someday it'll be gun owners getting tased in their homes and cars for
failure to show their "papers" and saying they have a "right" to their guns.
The "authorities" doing the tasing and trampling on our rights will feel morally
superior because of their non-lethal means of forcing compliance :evil:
 
I fear we have gone too far down the road of "officer safety" and "compliance to police orders" to go back.

It is now considered acceptable behavior for LE to use any level of force short of actually killing someone in virtually any situation.

The one in a million case of the meth addict is trotted out, but it is really a straw man position to take, and anyone with any intellectual honesty would readily admit that.

It would be far less offensive if there was any prospect of an honest and open investigation into these kinds of events, with some impartial judgment after the fact, with real consequences for anyone who engaged in misconduct. Since that prospect does not exist, it has become a bigger and bigger problem.

Our best hope as citizens is to pressure the politicians who can do something about it. If nothing else they can insist on independent investigations. No one could argue that is unfair to either side. The sad part is that there are now sides to be taken.
 
The problem is not when a meth-head needs to be taken down. The problem I see is that I see too much of the following sort of scenario these days in the news:

"You're coming with us."
"Why? I didn't.."
*ZAP* (much bellowing and threatening of onlookers, too)

I see it used too often for compliance, not due to any threat.
 
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