Safety VS. Courtesy ( A Spin Off Thread)

[Treo]

This is a Spin off of Kilted Claymore's thread.

We're trained our whole life to be polite to the people arround us, I would be willing to bet that if I walked up to every person that I meet tomorrow & stuck out my hand 90% of them would shake my hand. ( IOW give me control of their dominate hand).

My question is where do you draw the line?

To me, Kilted's scenario was pretty clear, he made the first aggresive move then moved to intercept. I'd would've stopped in the middle of the street an told him to back off, W/ my hand on my gun.

Which of course begs the question "Did I just escalate the situation to mutual combat?"

But what if it's not so clear cut? What if its just a wino on the street asking for your spare change, how close does he get before you back him off? What if it's a clean cut young man? Or a really cute woman?

What do you say ? Just how assertive is your tone?

Where is the line between asserting your boundaries and ( as I said earlier ) being aggressive to the point of mutual combat ( Which is a Co. legal term for "The fight was just as much your fault as his" so SD laws don't apply)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Where is the line between asserting your boundaries and ( as I said earlier ) being aggressive to the point of mutual combat ( Which is a Co. legal term for "The fight was just as much your fault as his" so SD laws don't apply)

Your understanding of "mutual combat" as a legal term is flawed.

Mutual combat does not apply if a party assaults or threatens you and you feel it necessary or prudent to resort to force to defend yourself. That is "self defense." (Whether a court and a jury would agree that you were justified is another question.)

Mutual combat refers to those situations when two more or less equally macho types agree to settle a dispute by physical combat. In other words, if you get drunk in a bar and invite the biggest lumberjack in the joint to "step out in the alley and settle this like men," once he starts punching your lights out you have no justification to pull a gun, because you agreed to the fight.

Some stranger dude accosting you on the street does not provide a scenario that suggests "mutual" combat. Unless your response to panhandlers is, "Hey, I don't have any change but do you want to fight?"

 

[Andy-Y]

I hear you on this one. I work at a homeless outreach center in Downtown Detroit and am in very close proximity to people I would cross the street to avoid under any other circumstances. On top of that I have to shake hands and make nice with junkies, drunks, prostitutes, and other undesirables. When I started this job I saw a lady fall out of a wheelchair and asked if she needed a hand. My boss pulled me off to the side and told me "never help anyone up, most of them hide needles in their clothes, and 90% of them have aids or hepititus" So be nice, but don't be too nice, people like that can sense fear, and will take advantage of it.

 

[Code3GT]

sounds to me like a good example where the use of force pyramid would be used. This image is close to what we used in the USAF but shows you how you start out at the lowest level and meet the force level of your (potential) BG. We referred to it as "risk perception"...what kind of vibe is the person giving you? Is that little tingle on your neck going off? Got a gut feeling? Then it's time to retreat if possible.

 

[Treo]

I may have got the wrong terminology but in Colorado if you escalate the confrontation you can't claim self defense.

As an example

Aggresive panhandler: Spare some change man?

You: Sorry man, can't help ( and keep moving)

AP: *** man you don't have fifty flippin' cents ( steps closer to you)

You: Mr I don't have any money for you, I need you to step back!

AP: Or what mutha ****a?

Were you assertive or did you just escalate it?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Were you assertive or did you just escalate it?

If you can't answer that question you shouldn't be carrying a gun. I'm serious. That is the sort of thing that should have been covered in any kind of training one should have received. If it wasn't, you really should invest in some training.

 

[Boris]

I may have got the wrong terminology but in Colorado if you escalate the confrontation you can't claim self defense.

As an example

Aggresive panhandler: Spare some change man?

You: Sorry man, can't help ( and keep moving)

AP: *** man you don't have fifty flippin' cents ( steps closer to you)

You: Mr I don't have any money for you, I need you to step back!

AP: Or what mutha ****a?

Were you assertive or did you just escalate it?

That's some hardcore panhandling. I have never run into one like that even here in NYC. Normally if they wanna rob you they just rob you.

 

[Starship1st]

Once I tell a pan handler that I do not have any change I keep walking and will not answer any more questions. Now if he decides to come after me he has escalated the situation and I have the right to defend myself.

 

[SCKimberFan]

Once I tell a pan handler that I do not have any change I keep walking and will not answer any more questions.

I won't engage in a conversation with them. I just keep walking. If they come after me, as was said above, it becomes self-defense.

 

[bdickens]

My all-purpose response is to cut them off as soon as they start talking with "sorry, I'm not interested." That goes for people trying to sell me something, panhandlers, "witnessing" to me, whatever.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

of course the guy could just be off his meds and not mean anything at all

 

[Loosedhorse]

If you don't want to shake someone's hand..

explain you have a cold, and decline. Requires a little white lie--but so much politeness does.

Of course, there are circumstances where the extended hand is inappropriate, and even rude; if a pan-handler you've never seen before approaches you on a dark, deserted street (or if Butch Cassidy, just before explaining the rules of a knife fight, smiles and leans in) I would NOT shake the offered hand--in fact, they'd probably need to be running to keep up with me.

But if that guy in the deserted street is my well known neighbor (or the fight adversary is a greco-roman wrestler just before the referee starts our agreed-upon match) then sure I'll shake.

Just hope I don't catch a cold!

 

[Treo]

I don't think I correctly communicated what I was getting at but I did get some useful input

Thanks all

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

If 'No, Thank you' 'Not interested' 'No' or any other phrase doesn't get them to leave me alone, then it might be time to get into the orange state of mind because there would be a very immediate threat ahead. Hand on the gun/holster and a loud verbal command to let me be. As far as the go out and shake everyone's hands thing you commented on, I would be in the 10% that won't shake your hand. Sorry, but unless I know you or am being introduced to you through a mutual friend or family member, then I will not just shake anyone's hand. This includes salesmen or anything to that affect, especially not someone that just came up to me with their hand out.

Damian

 

[KiltedClaymore]

well, i inspired the topic, i guess i should post. as i did in the safeway parking lot, sure i'll shake your hand (with my left hand, my right hand will be gripping a hidden weapon), but if you dont let go when i try to end the shake im gonna hurt you. very badly, very quickly.

 

[sacp81170a]

This is one of those areas where the BG's are taking advantage of your politeness. Like TeamPrecisionIT said, unless it's a social situation where I'm being introduced to someone and a handshake is the appropriate courtesy, I'm under no obligation to shake anyone's hand who just walks up to me on the street. I learned that in the USAF Security Police Academy like Code3GT and also in civilian police academy. In fact one of the things that gets drilled into you in the academy is that you shouldn't habitually carry things in your strong hand, but keep it free so you can access your weapon. You get used to doing a lot of things with your "weak" hand.

If someone approaches me too closely without permission I immediately blade my strong hand away. If you step back ever so slightly to do this it puts your body a little farther out of reach and makes it very awkward for them to try to shake. You don't have to say anything, just use your body language. This will put the real BG's off quickly. Anyone who's worked in a jail will be familiar with the little tricks and games inmates will play with you to see if they can close the distance and get a reaction from you. It's hilarious to see the "ballet" they'll perform until they figure out you're not going to let them have an advantage and you're not backing down. Trust me, crooks are very aware of your body language. A calm steady gaze that's not a challenge but simply an awareness that they're there also helps.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Now if he decides to come after me he has escalated the situation and I have the right to defend myself ...

If he follows after you asking for change, exactly what are you defending yourself against? Being asked for change?

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

You: Mr I don't have any money for you, I need you to step back!

I am not sure that there are many jurisdictions where possession of a weapon give you the right to order people around on a public thoroughfare. Is that true where you live?

Mike

 

[KiltedClaymore]

possession of a weapon give you the right to order people around on a public thoroughfare.

you weren't taught that the man with the gun (or, in some cases, the bigger caliber) always has the right of way?!

 

[sacp81170a]

possession of a weapon give you the right to order people around on a public thoroughfare

No, but it is nature's way of saying "Leave Me Alone."

(Well, that and the woad...)

 

[evan price]

The situation here is that you are attempting to de-escalate. Assuming the panhandler above, he asks for money, you say no, and keep walking. He follows you and demands money, you again refuse and keep walking away. He continues following you, starts yelling threats, you ignore and keep walking away. You are the one who is doing your utmost to leave the area. You can't teleport! If he pushes you to the point that you feel your life is in danger, that's why self-defense is a viable defense.

If he continues and becomes physical, you did your best, and at that point, the fight is on. Laying on hands is defeated by laying on hands, but if he has a pipe or a brick, what then?

I always tell people when we discuss training and tactics what I was taught: You must achieve and maintain situational dominance. Your one goal is to get out of the situation safely, preferably without a shot being fired. In this situation you need to be aware of what your destination is- and you should be aware of alternates, such as nice, public places with lighting and lots of witnesses. Instead of walking to your car in a dark parking lot, walk to a public place. There, you have witnesses, and like cockroaches, most petty criminals don't like bright light or public scruitiny.

BUT: Let's say that aggressive panhandler has followed you to your destination. Let's say it's NOT somewhere where you can easily evade him- such as, a bus stop, a locked door, a car in a parking lot. You can't get to a public place.
He squares off with you and makes a demand.

The vast majority of petty street criminals want a passive, helpless victim. They are basically bullies who are accustomed to being able to get what they want by being loud, aggressive and threatening. Most people would rather give them what they want that risk a confrontation.

Most (not all!) of this type of thug when faced with a potential victim who will defend themselves will quickly fade away. They know that there is no point risking thier lives or a stint in the greybar motel by hasseling a sheepdog when there are more sheep out there to be sheared.

Direct action, taken in a professional, no-nonsense way, will usually win the day. If you have a concealed pistol, draw it, shout a command to back off, and be aware of any buddies the thug may have waiting.

In almost every case the goblin will unass the area quickly when he realizes he is being raised to a more deadly level of the game. In some cases the goblin may not be afraid of the gun, or may act like he's not afraid, in which case, you've done all you can, and your only other option if the goblin presses the issue is to start shooting.

Shooting should be, must be, the last response to save your life. Try to find a way out of the situation. There's more to explain than can be fitted into a quick response to a post here!

 

[Treo]

I am not sure that there are many jurisdictions where possession of a weapon give you the right to order people around on a public thoroughfare. Is that true where you live?

If some totall stranger that I don't want making contact W/ me, is trying to make contact W/ me I have every right in the world to back him off. I challenge you to cite me a law that says otherwise.

The example I used here is just that, an example. I've read posts here were people have said that pan handlers have acted such like. I read on thread about how a guy ended up brandishing a weapon because he told a guy not to come closer and got asked " Or What?"

The most agressive panhandler I ever met walked up to my car at a 7-11 & demanded a dollar, told him I was broke & he called me a liar. I pulled my wallet to show him that I was, in fact, broke ( I was on my way to an ATM) and found out I had a few bucks I'd forgot about.

I felt so stupid I caved and gave him the buck.

That would have definetely been a orange situation cause he had all the advantage.

So how would you all have handeled the above actuall event.

 

[SomeKid]

I guess I am in the rude 10%. Unless I have some reason to shake the hand of a stranger, I don't.

 

[skidmark]

another "tactical little white lie"

The whole handshake thing has bothered me - I'm not talking about a situation where Person A (whom I know) is introducing me to Person B (whom I do not know, but Person A does know). I'm talking about a social setting where Person X (whom I do not know) comes up and sticks his paw out thinking I'm going to pump it up and down because to refuse to do so might be socially awkward.

Since Person X does not know me, they have no reason to disbelieve me when I tell them I have carpal tunnel, a sprained wrist/elbow/shoulder, arthritis, exzema, shingles, leprosy or some other condition that prevents me from pumping their paw up and down with my right (dominant) hand.

My experience is that most folks find the extending of the left hand (instead of the right) is confusing in and of itself, and so do not seem to be more put off when I grasp their wrist instead of trying to twist my hand to get palm-to-palm contact. I'm being as socially appropriate as I can under the circumstances, while I now have a good grasp of their dominanant hand/arm.

As for street encounters with persons I have never met before and never want to meet again -- let's just say I'm not voluntarily going to shake their hand or any other body part. If they think that will make me upset or embarassed it is just proof that they do not know me. If they insist I shake their hand it seems to me that they are trying to force me to act against my will - and that is justification for self defense. The amount of effort they put into trying to force me will determine the amount/type of force I use in defending myself.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[RPCVYemen]

If some totall stranger that I don't want making contact W/ me, is trying to make contact W/ me I have every right in the world to back him off. I challenge you to cite me a law that says otherwise.

So your opinion is that you live in a jurisdiction that permits you to shoot someone in a public thoroughfare for making eye contact with you when you don't want him to make eye contact with you?

That's not the law in NC - or at least not the law they teach in the CCW classes. In NC - at least in the CCW classes - they have pesky notions of imminent threat of physical harm or injury, motive, means, opportunity, etc.

Which jurisdictions allow the use of lethal force in the case of unwarranted eye contact?

Mike