Safety VS. Courtesy ( A Spin Off Thread)

[Treo]

So your opinion is that you live in a jurisdiction that permits you to shoot someone in a public thoroughfare for making eye contact with you when you don't want him to make eye contact with you?

WOW, I haven't mentioned shooting anyone anywhere in this thread. nor have, at any point, I made simple eye contact an issue. Yet you've got me advocating gunning down innocent civilians on mainstreet.

Gotta wonder.

 

[Deanimator]

That's some hardcore panhandling. I have never run into one like that even here in NYC. Normally if they wanna rob you they just rob you.

I saw something that aggressive once when I was in Philly in '86 for the American Society for Information Security conference. The NASA guy with whom I was walking to the exhibition hall rounded on the guy and said in a loud and hostile tone, "I'll give you something, I'll give you a tip. GET A JOB!" He's a BIG guy from the east side of Cleveland who played football for (I think) Adams HS. The bum took the hint and looked for easier, less potentially violent, pickings.

 

[Deanimator]

I guess I am in the rude 10%. Unless I have some reason to shake the hand of a stranger, I don't.

+10,000

I'm polite but not friendly to ANY stranger. There is NO way I'm going to banter with somebody hanging around dumpsters, much less shake his hand. Even if he's NOT trolling for robbery victims, as John Cleese once said on Fawlty Towers, "Don't touch me, I don't know where you've been."

 

[Deanimator]

I am not sure that there are many jurisdictions where possession of a weapon give you the right to order people around on a public thoroughfare. Is that true where you live?

NOBODY has a right to put you in reasonable fear of life and limb, absent a legally sustainable reason, such as self-defense or a legitimate law enforcement situation. The bum's not a cop, and the person being accosted is trying to EVADE him.

If the "panhandler" transcends the threshhold of begging to demanding something of value via threats of violence while attempting to close with you, he's put you in reasonable fear of life and limb.

You have NO duty to be friendly to him.
You have NO duty to comply with any demands from him.
You have NO duty to GIVE him anything.

If he attempts to touch you, you have every right to take such reasonable actions as are required to prevent that. And you've ALREADY retreated, whether that's required by law or not. You've got NO duty to either submit or to run from him.

 

[RPCVYemen]

That would have definitely been a orange situation cause he had all the advantage.

I think that a persistent pan handler can make for a situation that makes lethal force very hard to use. As long as the pan handler doesn't verbally communicate a threat, then it seems to me that they only recourse you have is back away. As far as I know, except for municipal ordinances that already have been or will probably be found unconstitutional, it is perfectly legal for someone to:

1. Not takes a shower.
2. Talk about aliens.
3. Request a financial contribution.
4. Walk very, very, very close to you - just short of physical contact.

That means that a pan handler - if careful not to express any physical threat - can get so close to you that it will be almost impossible to draw and use a handgun, without breaking any laws, or taking actions that would justify the use of lethal force.

I have known a few street people that were extraordinarily adept at working the system - and have very detailed knowledge of the laws that affect them. I am surprised that we haven't see examples of street people targeting well heeled CCW holders. Pester that person until they draw a weapon - careful stay inside the bounds of the law - and you've just won the lottery. If they have a CCW license, they are probably employed, own a home, etc. - plenty of assets to go after. If you shoot someone without legal cause, they (or their family) have just won the lottery in spades. If you shoot a homeless guy for telling you repeatedly that he's hungry and need a dollar, you are going to see a nearly endless parade of distraught relatives. People who haven't see him in 20 years will be suffering intense emotional distress at the notice of his demise. Greyhound may have to add extra busses just to transport them all to your civil trial.

It looks to me like handgun is a useful self defense tool in a public area if/when someone communicates a threat to you while at a distance that allows you to draw and potentially use the weapon. Those are pretty severe limitations. You have much more latitude in you house (generally - I think this varies a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction).

A handgun is not a magic wand. Welcome to life.

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

If the "panhandler" transcends the threshold of begging to demanding something of value via threats of violence while attempting to close with you, he's put you in reasonable fear of life and limb ...

If he attempts to touch you, you have every right to take such reasonable actions as are required to prevent that ...

I think you are making my point - until and unless he uses threats of violence, and/or touches you, he can say what he wants to say, and walk where he wants to walk - no matter how close to you he chooses to walk (as long as he doesn't make initiate contact), or how many times he repeats his request for a donation.

That means he can get pretty darn close - too close - as long as he's not making threats.

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

The NASA guy with whom I was walking to the exhibition hall rounded on the guy and said in a loud and hostile tone, "I'll give you something, I'll give you a tip. GET A JOB!"

I used a slightly less confrontational method a couple of times. Offer to take the guy to an AA meeting that night. I am sincere when I offer. But mentioning AA to a panhandler is like shouting "INS" at an Iowa meat packing plant.

Mike

 

[ZeSpectre]

I may have got the wrong terminology but in Colorado if you escalate the confrontation you can't claim self defense.

As an example

Aggresive panhandler: Spare some change man?

You: Sorry man, can't help ( and keep moving)

AP: *** man you don't have fifty flippin' cents ( steps closer to you)

You: Mr I don't have any money for you, I need you to step back!

AP: Or what mutha ****a?

Were you assertive or did you just escalate it?

I had almost this identical scenario happen when I still lived in DC. The guy grabbed my arm as I tried to walk away screaming "what you too good to talk to me mutha*****"

I wound up bodyslamming him onto the ground into a submission hold and then nearly went to jail for "assault" but fortunately there were several witness that stuck around to set the record straight.

 

[3fgburner]

I used a slightly less confrontational method a couple of times. Offer to take the guy to an AA meeting that night. I am sincere when I offer. But mentioning AA to a panhandler is like shouting "INS" at an Iowa meat packing plant.

I work 3 blocks from a hoomeless shelter, an one from a liquor store. I'll actually pull out my wallet, rummage through it, and hand the guy an AA wallet card. Never get asked for anything again, by that panhandler.

 

[Boris]

I think that a persistent pan handler can make for a situation that makes lethal force very hard to use. As long as the pan handler doesn't verbally communicate a threat, then it seems to me that they only recourse you have is back away. As far as I know, except for municipal ordinances that already have been or will probably be found unconstitutional, it is perfectly legal for someone to:

In the case that he is persistent, and does not listen when you tell him to leave you alone, but does not actually threaten you, what about simply showing the gun. If you carry it lets say on your belt under a shirt, simply pull the shirt up a bit. Don't draw, just show it to him, that gets the idea across. Cops ask, you say you felt threatened, but did not feel it was necessary to draw the weapon. Being a licensed CCW holder (I would hope) and, in their eyes, a respectable member of society compared tot he bum, I'm sure they will give you the benefit of a doubt. But people like panhandlers avoid dealing with cops as much as possible, so unless cops spot you doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.

I think you are making my point - until and unless he uses threats of violence, and/or touches you, he can say what he wants to say, and walk where he wants to walk - no matter how close to you he chooses to walk (as long as he doesn't make initiate contact), or how many times he repeats his request for a donation.

That means he can get pretty darn close - too close - as long as he's not making threats.

That's not always true actually. If he continues to bother you over anything after you told him to stop, I'm sure you can claim some harassment charges. In some areas in fact, like here in NYC, panhandling itself is actually illegal, though most cops don't bother them since as I said, panhandlers don't bother anyone. But if someone complains, they will take care of it.

 

[RPCVYemen]

In the case that he is persistent, and does not listen when you tell him to leave you alone, but does not actually threaten you, what about simply showing the gun.

This may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - friends who have take the NC CCW course have been pretty specifically warned against any kind of "just show the gun" actions.

I think that in NC, there are specific laws about showing guns - maybe it's called "brandishing" - but the guy who I've spoke to about the course say that they were not advised to show or pull the weapon in any situation where they would not be legally permitted to shoot it.

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

If he continues to bother you over anything after you told him to stop, I'm sure you can claim some harassment charges.

I think that it's been very, very hard to write aggressive panhandling statutes that pass constitutional muster. Speech is pretty heavily protected.

Furthermore, I am not sure that "I'm hungry, do you have some change?" should be regulated.

Do we want encourage the government to regulate speech between two private people on a public thoroughfare because it's repetitive, and/or offensive to one party?

Government regulation of "offensive" speech makes me very nervous - whether it's a racial/slur or asking me for spare change.

Mike

 

[scottgun]

In the case that he is persistent, and does not listen when you tell him to leave you alone, but does not actually threaten you, what about simply showing the gun. If you carry it lets say on your belt under a shirt, simply pull the shirt up a bit. Don't draw, just show it to him, that gets the idea across. Cops ask, you say you felt threatened, but did not feel it was necessary to draw the weapon. Being a licensed CCW holder (I would hope) and, in their eyes, a respectable member of society compared tot he bum, I'm sure they will give you the benefit of a doubt. But people like panhandlers avoid dealing with cops as much as possible, so unless cops spot you doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.

What you describe is brandishing, and illegal. Even homeless people have rights and protections under the law. Granted homeless people try to avoid the police, but if it was reported as you have described you would be in the wrong.

 

[Treo]

A handgun is not a magic wand. Welcome to life.

And again the only one talking about guns is you.

 

[scottgun]

I'm getting into the habit of carrying pepper spray most of the time.

I wouldn't hesitate to spray an persistent, unwanted bum who is getting to close and won't leave me alone.

Usually a polite but firm No is enough to get rid of panhandlers.

 

[Old Dog]

Quote:
A handgun is not a magic wand. Welcome to life.

And again the only one talking about guns is you.

So if this thread isn't related to firearms, what is it doing in the General Gun Discussions forum?

I guess I'm really amazed that some folks feel compelled to analyze what are usually simple social interactions on the street, while most of us just try to apply common sense ...

 

[RPCVYemen]

And again the only one talking about guns is you.

If this topic is unrelated to CCW issues/strategies, then what the heck is it doing in a THR General Gun Discussions forum? Shouldn't it be in the THR "Dear Miss Manners" forum?

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

Oops, somebody beat me to it.

Mike

 

[BruceRDucer]

Back Off! Yer gittin to close already!

It's none o yer business! This is a trap, right?

(hope that answers your question)

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

And again the only one talking about guns is you.

I suppose that is the case, if you don't count the very first post with which you started this thread saying, "I'd would've stopped in the middle of the street an told him to back off, W/ my hand on my gun."

That certainly seems to convey the threat of shooting if someone doesn't comply.

I guess I'm really amazed that some folks feel compelled to analyze what are usually simple social interactions on the street, while most of us just try to apply common sense ...

As they say, it ain't so common.

 

[MJRW]

I guess I'm really amazed that some folks feel compelled to analyze what are usually simple social interactions on the street, while most of us just try to apply common sense ...

The assumption that one's common sense is above scrutiny has led many many people to absolutely ridiculous conclusions and actions that they thought were common sense. It is wise to seek out a wide base of discussion to challenge our own views so that we can verify the validity or invalidity of the assumptions we've made in applying our common sense. To rely upon only what we think to ourself is unwise, we mostly agree with ourselves whether we are right or wrong.

 

[RPCVYemen]

I guess I'm really amazed that some folks feel compelled to analyze what are usually simple social interactions on the street, while most of us just try to apply common sense ...

The assumption that one's common sense is above scrutiny has led many many people to absolutely ridiculous conclusions and actions that they thought were common sense.

Actually, in this case, the actions might be more than ridiculous - they could be illegal. The CCW training in NC include a number of scenarios that by common sense would permit the use of lethal force, but where the use of lethal force is in fact illegal/questionable.

An example occurred earlier in this thread, where a poster suggested using the display of a weapon to warn off an aggressive panhandler.

Many of the scenarios presented in the course involved cases where at least one element of motive, means, or opportunity was missing, etc. Some involved people running away, etc. Different jurisdictions have different statutes, but the use/threat of lethal force may be pretty limited. Luckily in the south, juries are pretty sympathetic, but following the actual law is probably a better policy.

In many cases, lethal weapons statutes and/or case law do not follow what many of us would consider "common sense".

Mike

 

[SomeKid]

NOBODY has a right to put you in reasonable fear of life and limb, absent a legally sustainable reason, such as self-defense or a legitimate law enforcement situation. The bum's not a cop, and the person being accosted is trying to EVADE him.

You are correct insofar as you state nobody has the right put you in reasonable fear of life and limb. It is worth noting that state laws vary. TN law recognizes your right to self defense even against a LEO. (TCA 39-11-611 (e)3(A and B))

 

[sacp81170a]

If you carry it lets say on your belt under a shirt, simply pull the shirt up a bit. Don't draw, just show it to him, that gets the idea across.

Boris:

There were several longish threads here back a year or so ago about one of our members who did basically the same thing and wound up in a ton of trouble for it.

NOT a good idea!

 

[Treo]

So if this thread isn't related to firearms, what is it doing in the General Gun Discussions forum?

This is true, perhaps this thread should be Strategies & Tactics.

Maybe donuts are brain food

I guess I'm really amazed that some folks feel compelled to analyze what are usually simple social interactions on the street, while most of us just try to apply common sense ...

No you're not you're just looking for a chance to flame THR's premier (IYO) cop basher.

Like it or not guy I'm actually learning from this thread

Gotta go get a donut SYL