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Safety

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Potatohead, May 15, 2013.

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  1. Potatohead
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    Potatohead Member

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    thx for your post
     
  2. Potatohead
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    Potatohead Member

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    Ive gota bail on my own thread because ABCs of reloading has just been located in the mailbox! Which brings me to a question: Are their a shortage of gun/ammo BOOKS too? geez it took forever to get here-
     
  3. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    There are those safeties that are so small as to be difficult to disengage, but most of the time people that have problems with external safeties are not training properly/adequately.
     
  4. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    Let us say you carry a pistol for shooting people (Just when you have to) the rounds must go deep enough in the body, to devastate organs, modern hollow points that become sharper (Cutting) as they penetrate.

    There must be a lot of these projectiles (no one hands out lists of assailants prior to the start of an event causing loud sounds to be emitted from this self defense pistol) so if you need a lot, you might, a Glock 19 with a full compliment gives you a lot. As in 16, with a spare Glock 17 magazine on the belt, next to my Surefire LED, very bright LED.

    This pistol of mine, sits in a holster, were the trigger is protected, hidden.

    When I want to fire a quick flood of 9mm 147g, non + P Ranger T's. No safety to miss.

    You need an easy gun to shoot, that always goes bang! And again... lots of 9mm rounds.

    One last word on manual safety catches! NOT!
     
  5. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're transitioning from a partially expended magazine to a full magazine when there is a lull in the shooting is when you'd have a moment when a round would be in the chamber and no magazine in the handgun. That moment might be when the enemy appears nearby and not being able to fire that one round in the chamber might be a critical difference between escaping intack and not.

    As to the purpose of a magazine disconnect - it was introduced as a safety requirement to prevent a handgun that a handler thought was safe because no magazine was visible from firing that neglected round left in the chamber from improper handling or magazine performance. They date from the early Colt pocket pistols and it might be assumed the feature was there because of the small manual safeties and the handling of the pistols by the public to minimize the chance for a ND when the mag was out. (Of course its safe! The magazine is right here. POP!!! Ooops!)
     
  6. gym

    gym member

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    If you plan on carrying the gun for self defense purposes, it becomes an everyday task that you do unconsciously. After transitioning from revolvers and the occasional 1911, as a young man, to Glocks and just about every synthetic material that has been used along with metal, it all comes down to one thing.
    You should carry one type of gun for self defense, you may have different calibers, but it's a good idea to stick to either a gun with a safety like a 1911, or a gun without a safety like a Glock.
    Of course it's fine to own whatever you enjoy owning, but IMO, your carry gun should not be a rotation of half a dozen different guns that operate completely different, unless it's a double action revolver and a double action auto with no safety.
    This way you won't get mixed up in a panic, should something bad go down, and you need to shoot. "Not Think" ,Just Shoot. After you carry the gun for a year you won't have to worry about what ",might" happen only what will happen.
    This goes for your backup also, it should operate the same as your primary, ideally use the same ammo. IMO it's very easy for something bad to happen when you are put on the spot and have to react in a second or less, that's hard enough to do without worrying about which gun you decided to wear that day to go with your outfit. It should be one of the few constants in your life.
     
  7. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Having trained with 1911s and BHPs the habit of sweeping the safety off on presentation fo the pistol is so engrained that I carry out that motion with whatever is in my hand.
     
  8. statelineblues

    statelineblues Member

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    Originally posted by Ranger Roberts:
    This is why my CCW is a 1911 - I trained with it in the Army, have carried and shot them for 30 years, so dropping the safety is not an issue.

    Originally posted by dmazer:
     
  9. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Just my 00.02 $

    I see many as never having been in any form of confrontation.

    They like open carry and no safetys anywhere on a fighting/combat/PDW.

    I like a magazine disconnect as I know that ANYONE can have their gun wrestled from them,and IF there is a smidgeon of a chance to deactivate that firearm - then its dropping or just lowering the mag a bit to engage the safety.

    I cannot imagine anyone actually using a pistol by loading one round at a time,and some pistols wont allow that anyway.

    Also too many drunks and idiots will try to grab an LEO's gun.

    Too many prisons have filmed prisoners practicing TAKING a gun from the holster or the hand,dont think it can happen to you ---- my prayers are with you to never find out.

    having been the recepient of a couple of attempts,this is my view.

    My vote is magazine disconects,and NO safetys as I was taught a DA/SA revolver and then went to a DAO semi auto.
     
  10. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    just be aware that is a 2 way street......if you can deactivate it to prevent a bad guy from using it on you, they can also deactivate it to prevent you from using it on them.
     
  11. gym

    gym member

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    I would tend to agree with HSO on the Magazine Safety, I would want the gun to be able to leave a round in the chamber while changing out mags, especially with a multi round confrontation when you lost track of exactly how many you fired, "it does happen", I want the option of changing mags with perhaps 2 or even 3 rounds still in the weapon, and the ability to fire if someone suddenly walked up on me without the mag in yet, or perhaps a check of how many rounds I had left. I think a better retention holster would take care of the possibility of someone pulling at your gun, but anything can happen. I always removed the Mag safety just because I worried about a malfunction of a part bending or sticking
     
  12. dmazur

    dmazur Member

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    I'm not aware of a printed matter shortage, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was a side-effect of the increased interest in gun ownership and reloading.

    However, I am aware that there are only a few reloading books available in eBook format. "The ABC's of Reloading" is one of them. (Amazon).

    So, for anyone who can't find this in print, you can always get it for your Kindle...
     
  13. r1derbike

    r1derbike Member

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    I have no mag disconnect safety, but blade trigger and grip safety on my carry weapon; XD-S.

    I never thought the grip safety might be an issue when, because of injury or other factor, I couldn't get full purchase on the grip. Whoever made that point, thanks. I'm going to rethink that safety for a bit, and possibly give it a few Asian karate punches as well.
     
  14. dmazur

    dmazur Member

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    I believe the standard response to this concern is "weak hand drills".

    Another thing to practice is one-handed magazine changes...
     
  15. Bruno2

    Bruno2 Member

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    Any gun with a trigger safety only needs to be discontinued.
     
  16. Agsalaska

    Agsalaska Member

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    I dont really think a lot about what safety is or is not on a gun. If you dont pull the trigger it wont fire(assuming it is a modern firearm). I carry a snub 38. My house gun is a glock 19.

    My concern is, and always will be, accidental discharges by other people getting their hands on it. Those other people are right now under the age of 5. They can probably defeat any safety but they cannot chamber. So when we are on the ranch we do not, ever, leave a rifle chambered. And I do not leave a pistol anywhere they could get it. If it is not on me it is in a day safe. If it is a rifle on the mule it is not chambered and the safety is on.

    But the idea that a safety is going to prevent me from an accidental discharge is BS. I wont pull the trigger. THe idea that it will somehow keep a gun safe around little kids is also BS. Whoever believes that never had kids.
     
  17. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    I didn't read all of the other responses, but here it is for me (speaking as a LEO myself):

    I don't like additional things to fiddle with in a gun flight. The proper draw, stance, grip, form, etc that we all practice on the range isn't always as practical when you're rolling around in a pile of s&%t in a dark alley at 0200 hrs fighting for your life against someone who is trying to kill you. The last thing I want is another "feature" on my gun that could potentially fail to disengage when I need it to (perhaps due to a not totally proper grip on the gun, or maybe due to an injury that requires you to shoot from the weak hand) and prevent me from firing a shot that might save my life. Similarly, I don't want an external safety on the gun that can hinder me when trying to save my own life. Or, a gun that won't fire if the magazine is knocked loose, or not fully seated after a mag change, etc.

    I own and operate a wide variety of guns. Obviously the most important thing is knowing how to run the gun you have. For me, I like my defensive pistols to be as simple and straightforward as possible. Your mileage may vary, but in many modern guns these "features" are added so that the manufacturer can market another gimmick to the consumer. Some features are nice, and evolution of products is generally a good thing.

    It's an individual preference thing, but the bad outweighs the good to me on the features I spoke of above (again, speaking for a strictly defensive use gun).
     
  18. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

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    That's what both the local LEO's that I know who shot themselves while re-holstering said.

    As for all the posters who don't trust themselves with a manual safety on a handgun, what kind of rifle or shotgun do you prefer? Do you de-activate the safety on your home rifle or shotgun?
     
  19. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    It's not so much that I don't trust myself....it's that I don't trust the safety...you can train to flip it off pretty easily... but they can fail or get bumped on, snagged on a coat, ect....... Essentially Murphy's law.

    But to answer your question, if I can remove the safety without compromising the function or integrity of the gun, then yes, I remove it.

    You are talking about a device who's sole purpose is to prevent you from pulling the trigger....forgive me if I don't want that any where near a gun I might need to depend on.
     
  20. Armymutt

    Armymutt Member

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    I think a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the safety. It's to prevent the weapon from going off when you don't command it to - as in drops, jarring, etc. If you pull the trigger, even unintentionally, you are commanding it to fire. A lot of people don't train enough with their firearms to be able to disengage a manual safety under stress. In a truly stressful situation, the fine motor skills are the first to go. These are what you use to disengage a safety. I've seen guys bring their M-4 up on a target and try to shoot with the safety on. They never trained in manipulating the selector switch on the way up, but rather only once they got on target. I don't know the physhology behind it, but I'm guessing there is a sensory overload once the weapon is in firing position, vs when you are bring it up. I usually only manipulated the safety when the rifle was moving up or down. I carry pistols without manual safeties because they are well protected inside a holster and the trigger cannot be manipulated by anything. Most people who have a discharge while holstering weren't looking at the weapon at the time. That's just Darwinism. There is no reason not to look at your holster while putting the weapon in it. If you are holstering, then the threat has been eliminated. I haven't seen a holster for the M-4, so it needs a manual safety because you can't positively protect the trigger.
     
  21. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    I could be wrong but it seems like a good many folks say they do not like a thumb safety on their firearm. My uncle is a LEO and he scoffs at any gun with a safety-he wont even consider having a gun with one..

    Ask him about his deluxe dept. issue holster. Most likely he had to take a class on its operation alone. And, a LEOs holster is nothing about concealment, but the contrary!! These holsters cost around $100 with dept discount. LEO holsters are a safety device in themselves, with 2 or 3 things that must happen before the pistol can be drawn; the holster is an external safety. Why??? And this will be the basis for most of my following comments....No dept wants an officers pistol taken (unauthorized use), and ultimately used against them.

    Also, i've heard a lot of people say they do not like a magazine disconnect safety either.

    I agree, in fact thats a fleeting issue with current manufactures as far as I've seen.

    I know the safety "between your ears" is the most important but
    why do some folks not like safety features such as these, especially since you can choose to just not use the thumb safety if you have one? Am i missing something here? (FYI i'm still new at this so its quite possible that yes, i am missing something here).
    IMHO, lack of training or, fortunately,lack of real life encounters. Again I state that, dept issue pistols...regardless of manufacturer...are now mated to a level two or three holster. F.Y.I. that means, 2 or 3 things have to be pushed, tugged, etc before the pistol will come out.

    Then off duty LEOs take that same pistol i.e. GLock, and put it in an open carry / concealed holster you're asking for potential unauthorized use. If a thug whacks you in the head you will be disoriented for seconds...don't get shot with your own gun. Also ask your LEO friends if they're trained to 1)disarm an armed attacker and 2) recover their pistol (if its any type of dept), the answer will be ''yes''. Why??

    Between your ears...remember...in a real encounter you will be acting defensively. The perp will be the aggressor...offensively. If the perp takes your gun from you (its actually easier then you think) and he's taking several seconds (he's already in offensive action status)jerking on the trigger instead of disengaging the safety, you have that same time to respond, flee, etc.

    If you do decide to carry a firearm with/without a physical external safety I strongly suggest a concealment holster with some type of retention device, preferably a lever/button to push and not simply a snap. I also suggest training drawing your pistol, returning to holster, repeat. I also suggest further training in weapons retention & situational awareness i.e. an NRA approved course.

    BTW,the big "G" doesn't condone carrying their pistol with a chambered round. So says their instructional manual.With all those internal safeties, why??

    Hope that helps some!:)
     
  22. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Whether you admire the genius of John Moses Browning or Gaston Glock learn your weapon, train with your weapon, become one with your weapon.
     
  23. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    There are only two handgun safeties I find a little obnoxious:

    Magazine disconnect safety
    Any internal safety that needs a key (Looking at you Bersa and Taurus, key S&W)

    Thumb safeties, two stage triggers, long and/or heavy trigger pulls, grip safeties etc all work. 1911s wouldn't be so popular if they weren't safe to use and carry. Same said about Glock.
     
  24. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

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    I forgot about that one. IMO, a key for a firearm is ridiculous. I spent 10 mins yesterday looking for my tractor keys. I thought I had left them in the house; turned out they were in my truck console. Glad I wasn't looking for my 'pistol key'.
     
  25. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

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    Interesting thought process - you don't believe that the same Murphy's Law (getting snagged, bumped, etc) applies to triggers with rounds in the chamber?

    How do you transport your long guns that you might need to quickly depend on without a safety? Do you just lay them on the seat, chamber loaded, no safety? If you're using your long gun and it tactically makes sense to switch to your pistol (close quarters, vehicles, etc) do you just leave the long gun on the sling loaded with no safety? You don't believe that another piece of equipment could snag the trigger while you're moving around?
     
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